7 Stud: common mistakes made in basic starting hand situations

[King Yao]

Let's start over....some of these situations are getting comingled, so they are getting confusing to myself.

From what I understand, you are suggesting the following plays:

1. You complete with split Q's. A decent player with an A showing re-raises. I did not mention anything about position so these two hands could be from any position. In a vaccuum, you suggest to fold (I understand auto-folding will screw you up in future hands versus this decent player, so you'll have to call sometimes).

2. The low card brings it in, 5 players fold (no Aces or Kings showing). You have split K's and you complete. A decent player with a A showing raises. Your suggestion (two posts ago), was that you can't fold because the player with the Ace showing can be trying to re-steal with many hands that K's are a fave against. Yet, in your previous post to this post, its unclear.

So, that's where my confusion is right now. Should these two situations be played differently (in a vaccuum, not all the time, due to game theory problems that a good player can inflict on you if you fold all the time) because of the position? In one, I didn't state the exact positions. In the other, I stated the positions as being from "steal territory".

Thanks

[King Yao]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure where you pulled those numbers from. I'll just point out that while most people will raise split Aces or pocket Queens about every time, not everyone is going to raise with the three-flush or (JQ)A (especially with a King behind him) every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience in stud is limited, so my assumptions could very well be off. If you are saying many will not raise with a three-flush or (JQ)A, then that makes the argument for folding K's when an Ace raises (who is two to the left of the bring-in). If some wont' reaise with three-flush or JQA in early position, then that means when they do raise, its more likely they do have split A's...which means split K's is going to be enough of a dog to probably skip the hand.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Is that enough to assume he's unlikely to be trying to steal from the blinds (he's a decent player) from that position (5 players yet to act)?

[/ QUOTE ]


Unless the game is extremely tight, yes.

[King Yao]

thanks for those thoughts - the 2nd one is most interesting (having a weak 3rd player being involved)...very interesting.

[Roland]

It’s also very profitable. I’ve seen it happen – ace raises, king re-raises, split deuces call $17 cold [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bartholow]

Here's the thing:if all the decent players are going to fold any pair just because you raise with an A showing, then you can raise with a ton of ace-doorcard hands. Then the decent players figure it out and start playing back with other hands... So the question is where the equilibrium point is.

[King Yao]

I agree this game theory aspect would be the case in a table of 8 decent players. But is 8 decent players the norm? I was expecting the average table to have about 2 poor players. If it was 8 decent ones, surely some of them would soon pick up and leave, no?

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is that enough to assume he's unlikely to be trying to steal from the blinds (he's a decent player) from that position (5 players yet to act)?

[/ QUOTE ]


Unless the game is extremely tight, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]


On the other hand, many (not decent) players are going to be raising with complete crap if the game is only moderately tight.


7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___DISCONNECT
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.00 SB)

Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.00 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

6th Street - (2.00 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

River - (2.00 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx

Total pot: (2.00 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $16 | Side Pot 1: $22.5 | Rake: $1.5

Seat 4: [ 9s 5c 2c 4c 5d Tc 5s ]

Seat 5: [ Jc 8c Ah 4d 6h 2d 7s ]

[BeerMoney]

Call 4th. Vag....

[Andy B]

The first scenario is a general case. Generally speaking, if you raise with a big pair and another player raises with an Ace in the door, you should lean heavily towards folding. I do this less than I should. Position and the other cards that are out should weigh in your decision.

In the second scenario, you specified that five people folded. That means that there are three players left--the King, the Ace, and the bring-in. If the King raises, it is fairly likely that he is on a steal. With the Ace behind him, he probably wouldn't do it with nothing underneath, but he's still going to be raising light a fair amount of the time. The Ace will therefore re-steal fairly often himself. In this case, the Kings should not fold if he has Kings.

If the original raiser is in a relatively early position, the guy with the Ace is going to be more inclined to give him credit for a real hand. While he might occasionally make it two bets with a smaller pocket pair or a three-flush, he's going to have Aces often enough that it isn't worth chasing. With both players in late position, the guy with the Kings is frequently going to have the best hand.