How often do you guys jump tables when they become rock gardens

[Aaron W.]

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You can makes *LOTS* more money playing $5/10 than you can at $.50/1. But if you want to have a chance, you've got to go through a learning process.

Poker is about making money *LONG TERM*. Showing immediate profit by beating up on the "wussy" games is -EV if you intend to move up and play higher stakes games for more money.

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We agree on the above point.

What I'm trying to say is that you should definitely move up in stakes when you have ~300BB of that stakes. I've always preached that.

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This is a little misleading, I think. Bankroll is an important consideration, but it is not the only one. There's value to having longevity to your winnings (at least 10k hands, for example). There's also the non-profit considerations to be taken when playing poker. Most everyone here is playing for entertainment (which is not mutually exclusive with profit).

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But, when you're playing your current stakes, you should actively seek the best games.

Example: Let's say I'm playing 1/2. When I get approx $1200 I should move up to 2/4.

However, my *learning process* should be when I'm starting out in 2/4, NOT playing in tougher 1/2 games.

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Not exactly... If you think you're getting ready to move up, there's nothing wrong with ending up in a slightly tougher game at your current stakes. There's a broad range of games at every level, and if you can face tougher competition without risking as much bankroll (especially if you're considering making a move in stakes), there's no harm in doing it cheaply.

And, again, bankroll is not the only consideration when you're looking at the stakes you should play.

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You should never actively go out of your way to find tougher games at your current stakes. At the same time, you should never be afraid to move up in stakes.

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This is very debatable, even from a purely EV perspective.

Suppose you're currently playing $1/2 and you're thinking about moving up to $2/4 (and you're adaquately bankrolled for it). You find a $1/2 game and a $2/4 which are identical. Which should you choose?

For psychological reasons, the $1/2 game is better, as the risk aversion of playing the higher stakes affects how most people play, especially early in their transition. This is a way of taking smaller steps as you move toward your goal.

For bankroll reasons, the $1/2 game might be better, especially if you're not ready. Losing .25 BB/100 at a $1/2 game is better for your bankroll than losing the same .25 BB/100 at a $2/4 game.

With respect to moving up in stakes, I guess I agree that "fear" shouldn't be a factor, but certainly skill is a factor. Not moving up because you don't think you're good enough isn't necessarily "fear"; sometimes it's an honest assessment of one's ability. I recall reading stories about players who insisted on playing the tougher $40/80 games for minimal profit who could have been beating up on the $20/40 games for more than what they were making at the higher stakes.

[istewart]

At $.5/1 you need at least 1/2 guys who have earned themselves fish icons over a few hundred hands.

Or a guy who is 100/1 over 20 hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[scotty34]

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You can makes *LOTS* more money playing $5/10 than you can at $.50/1. But if you want to have a chance, you've got to go through a learning process.

Poker is about making money *LONG TERM*. Showing immediate profit by beating up on the "wussy" games is -EV if you intend to move up and play higher stakes games for more money.

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We agree on the above point.

What I'm trying to say is that you should definitely move up in stakes when you have ~300BB of that stakes. I've always preached that.

But, when you're playing your current stakes, you should actively seek the best games.

Example: Let's say I'm playing 1/2. When I get approx $1200 I should move up to 2/4.

However, my *learning process* should be when I'm starting out in 2/4, NOT playing in tougher 1/2 games.

You should never actively go out of your way to find tougher games at your current stakes. At the same time, you should never be afraid to move up in stakes.

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I have to disagree on move up when you reach ~300BB bankroll. Move up once you are confident that you are beating your current limit, and you are comfortable moving up to the next limit. My bankroll is ~$6000 now, but I certainly am not moving up to 10/20 yet. I want to make sure I can beat the players at 3/6 first, and then beat the players at 5/10. Maybe around August I will be up at 10/20. I think bankroll is only one of the requirements to move up, and probably one of the less important ones.

[Reqtech]

You can have GT+ not take your stats into account for table averages.

That being said, the table VP$IP is just an indicator of how hard I need to look at other players' stats. The averages are calculated by taking all of the hands of the players sitting. Tt can be skewed if you have a couple of players with very high/low VP$IPs, since they could have over half of the played hands taken into account on the table.

After 20 hands, I'll start paying closer attention to the stats of other players and start deciding whether I'm ready to jump ship. The overall table average is just a portion of the decision. Relative positions to rocks, lags, and loose-passives play a much bigger role in the final decision to stay or leave

[grjr]

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Another thing that must be kept in mind is that after you've been sitting at the table for a while then the table VPIP should drop down as well. If I sit at a 2/4 table and I'm seeing 19% of the flops after 150 hands it's going to make that 33% table I sat down at drop below 30%. So really when you keep switching tables sometimes you're just running away from yourself.

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^^ this is a good point. The table average is almost always going to go down when a 2+2'er joins.

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FYP [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[FlopMe]

I jump ship. I'm building a bankroll at .5/1 not preparing myself for 15/30. If the table doesn't have at least 4 players above 30% VP$IP I am gone. However, I will stay at the table if there's only 3 players above 30% VP$IP and they are all sitting to my immediate right.