Response to Cyrus

"Try a few thousand years."


Not even the current ethnic Palestinians have been living there that long. Islam isn't even that old.


My understanding is that the Arab v. Jew turmoil began in the middle east at the onset of Zionest attempts to colonize Palestine n the late nineteenth century. There were sporadic riots and other disturbances prior to WWII, but it became a sustained conflict only when zionism became a viable movement to create an exclusionary state.


"Do you really think that the creation of the State of Israel is responsible for ALL the turmoil in the mideast?"


Of course I don't. I think Israel and U.S. unilateralism cuased the current intifada and remain the largest obstacle to peace, but certainly there are intractable elements and other difficulties on both sides.


"Still it remains, as M pointed out, that Israel is a recognized political entity on this planet. Those who are committed to her extermination, and try to bring it about through violence, are criminals."


I though I was the one that was suppose to complain about the U.S. being founded by criminals;-). Broken down, this amounts to a "might makes right" argument.


"They refuse to live under Israel rule yet they desire to live in Israel territory."


The only thing that makes it "Israel territory" is the Israeli army: it is an occupying force. Apart from the obduracy of the most powerful actors, the possibilities for peace are not far-fetched. There is a general solution to this problem that the world outside the U.S. has been advocating for many years.

>>"We don't give aid to countries which refuse to engage in diplomacy or which insist upon violating the human rights of their people." <<


http://www.amnesty-usa.org/countries..._to_abuse.html


Check out this link. Personally I think we've prostituted ourselves by being aligned with the Saudi's.

Quote from nasser in 1967,


"Again, a few months later, Nasser expressed the Arabs' aspiration: "...the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel."(4)

At some level, when we get past all the international law stuff and sovereignty talk and civilized controls, all that ever makes a country a sovereign unit within whatever borders it has, is the fact it can occupy and control its territory through means that are forceful. They are not always outwardly violent means, but sometimes they are. And in the last 50 years, several countries have taken their shot at Israel and lost. In the end if Israel keeps its existence alive, it will have been through violent means. And the same goes for most countries.

Jake, nice, funny description of the Saudi political system: "one man, one vote, literally". But it is not accurate. I prefer to call their system the Perfect Mafia.


See, this is a country run by a Family, the Sauds, who have spawned numerous princes and princelings and whatever, all placed in various key positions of the regime, all "consulted" through the family hierarchy according to the seriousness of the matter at hand, and all sharing (again, according to hierarchy) the loot (read : oil income) on a pro rata basis. Above everyone rules the Capo Di Tutti Capi, Guardian of some familye jewels or other - and a very harsh Law.


No family wars, no fratricides, no turncoats, no stoolies, no trouble. The perfect way to run a mob!


...Next week, on HBO : "Tony Goes To Jeddah For Some Primers".

--""50 years!!! I think you've sadly revealed something about yourself, here. Try a few thousand years."" --


No.


The conflict between Palestinians and Jews does not go back to antiquity. The Palestinians are, in fact, a semite racial group and have never been anti-semites, historically. Their antagonism towards Jews began when the Zionists started seriously demanding the Palestinian land for the Jews and the Jews only. This started some 100 years ago. And it borne fruit, for the natives, when Israel was created.


--""I just don't see a solution. I'm sure Solomon would have had difficulty as well.""--


Solomon would prove himself to be the equal of the Founding Fathers by completely separating State from Religion, and doing away in one swoop with both sides' fundamentalist notions- not to mention, establishing the best basis for a total amalgamation of races in the area.


Himmler's nightmare! A totally mixed race, prospering on the ancient Holy Land. Now, THAT would be the Jews' perfect vengeance.

How does it amount to a "might makes right" argument? Didn't Israel come into existence under U.N. auspices and wasn't it created in accordance with international law? That's my very limited impression; feel free to correct me if I am wrong. And if that is so, then it doesn't seem like a "might makes right" argument to me, unless the might is used to hold on to what Israel has a right to.

So, you think the Palestinians have only hated the Jews for about 100 years? I guess that depends how you define palestinians. Did they spring into existance with the creation of palestine? Are they descendants of the nomads that people generally associate with the holy land? Where did they come from? And who have been fighhting the jews since the time of Abraham?


In 1947 the jews took by force the area we used to know as palestine. the jews needed a safe place considering what happened during world war 2. They had been ejected from every country in the world except for France and the US. They were granted political life by the UN in 1948. In 1956 they were attacked. They won. In 1967 they were attacked, they won land they held it, they won, they gave the land back. In 1973 they were attacked they won they won land, they held the land as a buffer.


Israel recognizes every other state's right to exist. The Arab world has made it clear time and again that the destruction of Israel is the only solution. They might talk nice, they might make promises, but I'm pretty sureeven the most rabid anti zionist in the world wouldn't blame Israel for not trusting the words of Arafat and Assad.


Israel is here to stay. Get used to it. You don't have to like it.