Success @ $20-$50 SNGs--Reflections

[Raiser]

Indiana,

Most of what you posted is known by most of the readers on this forum.

That said, I feel compelled to point out that limping with 33 from all positions is not a leak in these games. I hope you know the difference between this hand from MP and 78s?

[Big Limpin']

So by mucking KQs in MP, i will be able to
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cash out triple digits checks at least once a month

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Oh-la-la! (nah man, im just being a dick, good post, i agree with what youve written)
But:
-Its not "revolutionary"
-You can't teach bad players to respect positon. They "know" about it, but dont practice it.

Cheerio [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[citanul]

I have contention with the following:

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Finally, you will likely need to take 1-2 big risks during the game to make the money. This will be something like pushing from the blinds with KQs or worse when limped to later in the tourney. You will need to get away with this in order to survive to the end. Spend the first few rounds figuring out where to best do this and who to do this against.

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for a variety of reasons. Primarilly that if that sort of thing is the biggest "risk" your taking, and if you're only taking said risks 1 or 2 times a tournament, you're playing badly. Secondarilly that such things as pushing crap with huge folding equity on the bubble, and pushing the likely best hand with huge folding equity when people have limped to you on the bb with lots of dead chips, well, those aren't really very risky spots. There is always the inherent risk that someone is either trapping you or someone behind you wakes up with a monster and you don't suck out, but I mean, come on, you have to play the game and make the series of moves with the highest combined EV as you can. (Sidenote: clearly sometimes not taking one +EV move sets up making a later bigger +EV move, or, in other words, playing a hand non-optimally at one point can set up a hand later to have a better optimal result than it otherwise would have.)

If I could summarize and compact your discussion of risks, it would be "at some point, you will have to play an intelligent, aggressive style of poker." Combining that with "play tight early, looser late," you can hereby beat the 10s through 50s.

citanul

[GoldenHorde]

I think you have a good general concept but if you are tossing QK or 33 early in a SnG you are missing out on huge opportunities to make large amounts of chips with very little risk against the crazies. They key is to play them well as opposed to not playing them at all. It isn't that rare for a flop of K-7-3 or such to come when you are holding KQ and a great opportunity to get your money in against K8 or K9 to double up or even to take a small pot of 100 chips or so. And if you are tossing PP's for 15 or 30 chips thats just crazy.

It has been my long held belief that one could maintain a positive ROI by not playing a single hand until lvl 4, but I also believe you can double that ROI by playing well during lvl's 1-3.

Avoiding marginal advantages early is good but avoiding large advantages is just missed opportunity.

[Indiana]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere...I often hear this type of talk.."toss low pps in EP, no way, toss 97s on the small blind with 5 limpers, no way." This is what I am saying...You are ignoring the backside nature of the SNGs if you think you should limp in EP with 22-55...Why would you even limp with these??? I would only limp at a tight passive table...You are like 7.5:1 to hit a set and you are likely to have to call a raise and play the hand 3-handed...say u limp for 30 with 30 in EP, and you have to call just 60 more for a total of 90..Then you will need to make like around 600 more chips after the flop if you do hit your set just to get to a small profit from the implied odds....This aint easy...most of the time you will just lose the money that you have invested...Its kind of like buying the penny stocks isnt it??

Indiana

[Raiser]

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...You are ignoring the backside nature of the SNGs if you think you should limp in EP with 22-55

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What is the practical difference between 22-55 and 66 or 77? There is none, unless you think set over set occurs enough to worry about. Or you think that with 77 you can play it as an overpair enough to make it worth the limp/call. I really can't think of a situation where I would throw out any pocket pair from any position if I can limp in the first 2 levels.

[citanul]

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You are ignoring the backside nature of the SNGs if you think you should limp in EP with 22-55...Why would you even limp with these???

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you are incorrect. very incorrect even.

i would limp with them because doing so wins me chips.

citanul

[The Yugoslavian]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'backside nature'....is it reverse implied odds? Does it have to do with risk/reward??

Anyway, I will play very few hands early on at lower buyins...but oddly enough, I *will* play KQ from MP, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], so I think it's a bad example.

The other key to playing hands is being v good post flop...in fact, at buyins 55+ (and to some degree 33), you *need* to be able to extract chips during the lower levels to be a significant winner.

Anyway, if what you're saying is 'play tight early on' I'd have to agree with you....but I'm not sure that is all you're really trying to say.

Yugoslav

[citanul]

by backside nature he means the commonly used:

you win this game at the end, not the beginning, with proper late game play, not early game play, so being alive late with some chips is the most important thing.

he, and others, are missing out on the fact that the "with some chips" is a really important part of that line.

citanul

[gumpzilla]

Quoting from the original post:

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The key to winning SNGs is to understand that NL holdem is a BACKSIDE game. That is, position is the most important element of the game.

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This makes sense in conjunction with his complaint about limping 22-55 in EP in particular.