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#22
05-16-2005, 11:00 AM
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Re: 88
Ok, I browsed through some of the replies here and there's a couple that make me happy that I play sng's to win $$$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold to begin with, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hand range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push. 
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#23
05-16-2005, 11:02 AM
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comparing wrong numbers
While you certainly make a good point, but I think you are omparing the wrong two numbers.
I havent done the math yet, but its obvious that you need to compare what happens if I call-fold and what happens if I push or what if I fold. Comparing call-fold with before the hand took place doesnt really mean much in this case. ICM is somehow inadequate in considering upcoming blinds, so I wouldnt say that a mrginal +EV play would be the correct play here. There is a lot of variables here about who will call and push, and a lot of numbers to be guesstimated. That said, you sure bring out an interesting play. Something definitely worth looking into
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#24
05-16-2005, 11:03 AM
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Re: 88
[ QUOTE ]
This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push. [/ QUOTE ] Run the ICM's if: If you push, button would only call AA-JJ. The big stack would call any ace, any suited king, any pair, and any two cards 9 or higher. The BB would fold any two cards if you get a call. The BB calls any two if both of the others fold. I'm not certain that pushing would be +$EV. Can eastbay's tool do something like that? I'm not too familiar with it.
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#25
05-16-2005, 11:04 AM
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Re: 88
As others have pointed out, pushing is the only thing that isn't exploitable here. If you call, SB is too likely to come over and if you fold, SB may well fold and punish you two medium stacks. He's not worried about bubbling out.
You have huge FE on button and SB has no great reason to call your push without a hand. 88 is too strong to let go. I think I would fold 55. Unless big stack is totally totally passive I wouldn't call.
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#26
05-16-2005, 11:09 AM
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Re: 88
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I browsed through some of the replies here and there's a couple that make me happy that I play sng's to win $$$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly right. Unless SB has no clue how to play the BS he should push you with any two on a limp. I cannot think of a better scenario for him/her to do so. This is tailor scripted for big stack to exert maximum pressure on hero. Let me ask this....who here as BS would not push over hero's limp...and what would be you push range if hero limped in? My range in white: <font color="white">it's a trick question...the cards dont matter here AT ALL </font>
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#27
05-16-2005, 11:11 AM
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Re: 88
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This is an automatic push and it's not even close. If you're at my table, and limp here UTG, I guarantee you that I'll push my SB here (if I'm big stack SB) with any 2. And that's a given. If you fold, you're folding the best hand and playing for 3rd. What other option is there but to push? Any type of hange range you'd put the other stacks on and it's still a push. [/ QUOTE ] Run the ICM's if: If you push, button would only call AA-JJ. The big stack would call any ace, any suited king, any pair, and any two cards 9 or higher. The BB would fold any two cards if you get a call. The BB calls any two if both of the others fold. I'm not certain that pushing would be +EV. Can eastbay's tool do something like that? I'm not too familiar with it. [/ QUOTE ] This is a joke right? Sorry if I'm cranky but I haven't slept yet for a long time and this whole thread really shows how much the bubble is misunderstood. To answer your questions, assume these call ranges: BB: any 2 SB: 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs (default maniac setting which is even too loose) BTN: JJ+ It's +1.2% / $11.62 Now let's assume something else, with the same info as above, and if you want a minimum 0.5% edge, you push with: Push hands: 77+,AJo+,ATs+ (8%)
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#28
05-16-2005, 11:13 AM
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Re: 88
This has developed into a very interesting thread.
My 2 cents: Firstly, if folded around, BS may not put SS A-I. BS may want to try to keep shorty around so he can steal every the next few hands easily with any two. If this is the case, calling is the least risky way to get ITM, but hurts your chances at first tremendously. If you call and BS pushes, SS might fold hoping you 2 go at it and pray for third. Or he'll call with his tremendous pot odds. If SS folds, you fold...SS is A-I next hand, you're 50/50 to make the money right there. If SS calls, you must call...you're well over 50/50 to make the money and can more than double up and have a good chance for first. If BS is the type of player who would just take the pot odds and bust SS, folding is the safest way to get third. If you push, BS will have a hard time calling without a very good hand. And you are a big favorite against the BBs any two. IMO pushing is the best way to accumulate chips to prepare yourself for a charge for first. Calling and folding are close in my mind depending on read of BS.
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#30
05-16-2005, 11:16 AM
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Re: 88
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I browsed through some of the replies here and there's a couple that make me happy that I play sng's to win $$$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] well, your reply has made me very happy as well. I'm very glad that you would push any two here, coz I would definitely limp being the hero, with any real hand in that position. Pretty positive that there is a increaing number of players, who read these forums, and have started to blieve that all you have to do is push any 2 in a given spot everytime. You better be wary if a good player limps from that spot. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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