What is the most devastating single terrorist attack in history?

[andyfox]

We didn't do it the first time because we thought it meant our survival. See what General Marshall said in 1938 in my post above. "Perhaps the best way to offset this initial defeat is to burn Tokyo and Osaka," said General Leonard Gerow on December 9, 1941. So the idea was in the air (bad choice of phrase) without us feeling our survival was at stake. "When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast." That's what Truman said about Japan; his feelings were also in the air in the total war environment of World War II.

The technological fanaticism that led to the firebombings has been well described by author Michael S. Sherry:

"In their long journey from Pearl Harbor to the enemy's surrender on the decks of the Missouri, Americans might be likened to a man forced to set out on a cross-country car trip. As he drives along, the trip gathers its own interest, momentum, and challenge. He finds himself diverting to places he had not imagined; he tinkers with his car and enjoys feeling it run faster and smoother and discovers a power and mastery in manipulating it. Perhaps he did not choose this mode of travel conscious of the pleasures it would bring; he thought it necessary because of the baggage he wanted to bring along and because it was cheaper to travel this way, and after all, he already knew how to drive. Nor does he forget what his destination is, but as he travels he does not dwell on its importance; it will take care of itself if he makes the trip properly. Once the trip is done, it rapidly fades from memory, its pleasures and challenges now comfortably tucked away in his mind as necessities imposed on him in order to enable him to reach his destination, not as choices he had the freedom to make." [emphasis added]

[andyfox]

Rumors of Mark Twain's death are greatly exaggerated.

Bravo.

[wacki]

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NO! Not a wise thing to say Wacki.

-Zeno

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I know, what happened to the Jews was horrible. But considering a larger percent of the Ukrainian people died in comparison to the Jewish people, and considering many more Ukrainians and Manchurians died vs. the Jews, you can't deny that it would be much safer to be a Jew then a Ukrainian in WWII.

I never meant to belittle what happened to the Jews, I just find it ironic that there are tons of larger massacres that aren't remembered. It's a shame any of this happened. It's a shame that many of these massacres were forgotten, and it's an even bigger shame many of the war criminals were not only given immunity, but rewarded generously after the war.

I hope you understand my point.

[Zeno]

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How about the bombing of Dresden, Germany?

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Estimates vary widely on this but the latest reasonable numbers put the death toll at around 25,000 (see Wilson Quarterly, Spring 2005 issue) with many Tens of thousand wounded or made homeless. Claims of many more victims have been made but it is well known that the German propaganda ministery doctored reports during the war. This is not meant to downplay the horrific nature of this bombing raid. Given the difficulty of estimates it is very possible that two times this number (say about 50,000) died.

The less well known firebombing of Hamburg (by British and Canadian bombers) in late July 1943 killed an estimated 40,000 people: Hamburg and left many more homeless and/or wounded.

-Zeno

[andyfox]

In World War I, only 5 percent of the deaths were civilian; by World War II, civilians constituted 66 percent of the deaths. "History is a bath of blood," wrote William James in 1910, but little did he know what the 20th century would bring: 44 war deaths per 1,000 of global population (compared to 16 in the 19th century and 9 in the 18th).

The secret use of germ warfare by the infamous Japanese army Unit 731, made up of scientists and medical doctors, was not revealed at the Tokyo war-crimes trial or at any other postwar tribunal. Unit 731 deliberately infected human beings with dangerous germs and chemicals in order to determine their effectiveness in warfare. This gruesome affair was never brought to light or trial because the United States was itself involved in biological warfare experiments at the time and wanted access to the results of over a decade of research by the Japanese. General Shio Ishii, director of Unit 731, bargained for full immunity in exchange for the data. General MacArthur not only agreeed but arranged for Ishii not to be prosecuted. Ishii died at a ripe old age, after lecturing to U.S. Army specialists on chemical warfare at Fort Detrick, Maryland.

In 1939, Unti 731 was a cluster of laboratories, living quarters, and barracks 40 miles south of Harbin in Manchuria with a staff of 3,000 sicentists, technicians, and security personnel. For thousands of Russians and Chinese, Unit 731 proved to be a death camp. Later in the war, Unit 731 used U.S., British, Australian, and New Zealander POWs to see if the results would differ according to race.

Ishii wanted to see if men could be infected in the same way that lice, mosquitoes, ticks and fleas are. For example, the port of Ningpo south of Shanghai was attacked with plague germs by scattering contaminated fleas by plane. There were many such attacks in heavily populated areas, executed always with utmost secrecy.

The people on whom such experiments were performed were called marutas or "wooden logs." People were deliberately infected with syphilis, and there were experiments in which blood was siphoned off and replaced with horse blood. The "anatomical studies" indeed involved vivisection of living human beings. Later, the bodies were cut up and the specimens placed in hundreds of jars. Neither Ishii nor any of his colleagues were brought to trial for their war crimes.

On the Japanese scorched earth policy in China, officers commanded their men to "Loot all, Kill all, Burn all." Total war was declared against the peasants. When the peasants fled, the Japanese army pursued and killed them. In the area of northern China where this policy was applied, the campaign reduced the Chinese population from around 44,000,000 to 25,000,000.

[Zeno]

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I hope you understand my point.

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I do. Millions have died from 'less well known' horrific crimes. Mao (during the Great Leap Forward) was directly responsible for one of the most devastating famines in all of human history, even bypassing Stalin. It is estimated that 30 million people died. Though it is difficult to varify figures of this magnitude. Still, millions did die.

-Zeno

[fimbulwinter]

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Dictionary.com define a terrorist attack as "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature."

Some of the other threads make me think about this. The Guiness book list 9-11, but I think the #1 should be the bombing of Hiroshima (140,000 civilians killed) and #2 the bombing of Nagasaki (70,000 civilians killed).

What is your take on this?

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The violence was calculated against at least somewhat military targets. the civilians were told to leave the area.

so no, this does not constitute terrorism any more than bombing a german airfield located in occupied france.

I'm not proud of the fact that my country vaporized thousands of non-combatent japanese. in fact, war in general is not something about which to be proud. was it the right decision?

yes.

fim

[player24]

The WWII attacks had a military objective and do not qualify.

1) 9-11
2) Noah's Flood

[Il_Mostro]

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The WWII attacks had a military objective and do not qualify.

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So nothing that has a military objective can be considered terrorism then?

[player24]

The original post did not include include "military objective" as part of the "terrorism" definition.

Is bringing a sudden end to a devastating war between nation/states an appropriate military objective? (WWII)

In wars, people die who do not personally deserve death. There are usually opportunities during war to minimize killing, and it's good to take advantage of them when we can. But the military objectives come first.