A hand worth a discussion - Page 3

TrailofTears · #21 05-05-2005, 09:36 PM

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I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

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I couldn't get my VPIP under 25 if my life depended on it, nor would I want to. But there is a huge difference between laggy play and smart-laggy play, and this particular hand falls in the former category, IMO. You force your opponent to respect your play, nor can you make you hand better than it is. I am not judging you as a player, but I am judging the hand you posted here, and it is poorly played IMO. Take that for what it is.

As for this hand, what did villain have and how was your read?

-T

TheWorstPlayer · #22 05-05-2005, 09:44 PM

I think he already said that he had Js5s, so his read was (surprisingly [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) spot on. I completely agree with you, though, that even ignoring all else this hand was played brutally on the turn.

FreakDaddy · #23 05-05-2005, 09:47 PM

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Without reading the other posts, it sounds like Villain put you on tilt and you played with your balls instead of your head. Even stupid LAGs wake up with a hand, I think I wait for a better spot to take his money. LAGs are very good at making solid players overplay their hands.

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I agree, except I wasn't on tilt or anywhere near it.

TrailofTears · #24 05-05-2005, 09:48 PM

Sorry, I got lost in the mass of posts here. Thanks for the results, Gogg.

-T

FreakDaddy · #25 05-05-2005, 09:52 PM

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I understand that most people on this forum have problems with a hyper-aggresive style of play. I know it's easier to sit back with a 15% VP$IP and play ABC poker. I'd rather develop my reads at this level and experiment while the poker is cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't get my VPIP under 25 if my life depended on it, nor would I want to. But there is a huge difference between laggy play and smart-laggy play, and this particular hand falls in the former category, IMO. You force your opponent to respect your play, nor can you make you hand better than it is. I am not judging you as a player, but I am judging the hand you posted here, and it is poorly played IMO. Take that for what it is.

As for this hand, what did villain have and how was your read?

-T

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We're allowed to have different opinions about it. I think great poker comes from the reads you're making at the table and it's really difficult to fully discet/understand a particular hand that varies from the 'typical' poker situation. Regardless, I was hoping to get some discussion about the thought processes that go into making great reads and playing styles against particular opponents.

Villian had Js,5s.

FreakDaddy · #26 05-05-2005, 10:04 PM

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I think everyone understands this hand, but not many are going to like it. The reason being is that villian is going to show down Kx often enough to make this a long-term loser, and you're not going to knock him off it. In order for a semi-bluff to be considered there has to be some chance that villian will fold, and this villian obviously will not do so. Also try to put your opponents on a range of hands(very difficult against LAG/Maniacs), he could very easily be holding A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x or a str8 draw. Which would obviously taint some of your outs. So given that you could already be behind,villian will not fold, and alot of your outs could be dirty , this looks very -ev. JMO

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While after the flop raise I placed villian on Kx and had a solid feeling that obviously I was behind, I also had a decent enough read to believe that my call and push would make him lay the hand down, even against a maniac. There's one thing I think people are overlooking about this hand and I hope I can bring it to light. A lot of maniacs that know poker have a tendency to back off when more aggression is shown towards them. Why? Because if they know that you haven't been in a lot of pots AND you are willing to put yourself all-in they'll drop their hands when faced with counter-aggression. I didn't read villian as an idiot maniac, but as a semi-knowledgable maniac. If he was an idiot maniac, then I never would have taken this line. And I firmly believe that if my read was correct and he had Kx, that he would have laid this hand down. The fact that he had bottom two pair and I still ALMOST made him lay the hand down still confirms my read. His comments after the hand further confirmed it and he gave me nothing but respect from that point on. The whole hand is questionable, but in my overall view, after listening and reflecting on it, I think a great hand. I'm enjoying the discussion though.

beset7 · #27 05-05-2005, 10:16 PM

I think I was the villain in this hand. Seriously. When was this? PM me your party name if you want me to confirm.

I've been playing 200nl but after a long-night of final exam prep I was too tired to play that high so I decided to go suckout on people in the 25nl for kicks. Was my vpip really that high? Are you sure about the 20-30xBB preflop raises? I remember raising the pot after a bunch of limpers numerous times but nothing like that. But i'm almost sure I remember this J5 hand.

swolfe · #28 05-05-2005, 10:27 PM

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I think I was the villain in this hand. Seriously. When was this? PM me your party name if you want me to confirm.

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now that's funny

TreyOfLight · #29 05-05-2005, 11:35 PM

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The pre-flop re-raise isn't a bad idea, and if I were going to play this hand against most opponents in a raised pot OOP that's what I would do, but I elected not to for good reason. Villian had a tendency to go over the top and I wanted to play the cards cheap, hit the flop or bail. It was a marginal hit and a gutsy post flop play.
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The whole hand is questionable, but in my overall view, after listening and reflecting on it, I think a great hand. I'm enjoying the discussion though.

[/ QUOTE ]Headsup with a maniac and allin preflop with AJo is a solid play, maybe.

Postflop, 4-way and oop with that same AJo and a raised pot is a freaking abortion. What was your plan if MP1, BB and UTG+1 called you on the flop? How about if the maniac reraised them all after that? Maybe he's just being maniacal and your jacks are good, but you've no clue what the other three hold. Your position cripples you.

In general, postflop play with maniacs is best avoided because (a) they're more willing to lose their stack than you are, and (b) you can't put them on a hand.

There will be other hands, hands where you aren't in the SB and raised by a third party, and other chances to take the maniac's stack. Be patient.

TrailofTears · #30 05-06-2005, 12:30 AM

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In general, postflop play with maniacs is best avoided because (a) they're more willing to lose their stack than you are, and (b) you can't put them on a hand.

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I'm going to go ahead and say postflop play with maniacs is hugely profitable. (a) is a benefit of their play style, and (b) doesn't matter, as long as it is worse than yours.

-T