5's and 10's

[rusty JEDI]

cpk,,,i am curious. where did these numbers come from?

[John Biggs]

You are completely missing Dynasty's point here.

[Mason Malmuth]

Years ago you use to occasionally see this stuff in the poker magazines/newspapers, and I would occasionally hear it from self proclaimed pot limit players where it might make a little bit of sense. But in limit hold 'em it has essentially no value.

MM

[cpk]

It's from the "example" hcmpn program in the freeware poker-eval library. I forgot where I downloaded it from, but you should be able to find it by searching for 'poker-eval' on google.

The methodology is to simply deal out all possible combinations of cards and see who wins.

Mason--In his book on PL/NL, TJ Cloutier seems to think that TT is slightly more valuable than AK because of the crippled straight potential. His opinion is based on years and years of playing high-stakes poker in Texas. I'm not in a position to argue. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Ulysses]

unless, of course, we address the fact that the more 5s and Ts we have, the fewer we have, thus the less likely then can make a straight.

Huh?

5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and Ts have more power ... than the the power of 2s, 3s, 4s, Js, Qs, and Ks.

So, I think you're saying that you would prefer your first card to be one of (5,6,7,8,9,10) than one of (2,3,4,J,Q,K).

Maybe someone else will run some sims, but intuitively that just feels wrong. I'll take my chances with the Jacks, Queens, and Kings.

If that's what Josh meant, and if there was any value to playing a 5-10, then wouldn't we play the J4 offsuit so that we increased the number of flushes we could make from one to two? Would we fault the pocket TT because we would be limiting the number of quads we could draw to? This is the kind of logic I'd like to see more of.

DisRdatMan

.

JT,
Using PokerWiz 2,000,000 simulations, A5 always has better odds of beating random hands than does A6. The difference is very small, but always there, even down to a shorthanded game of 3 players. Incidentally, the odds of winning with A5 OR A6 against random hands are always LESS than the chances of a random hand winning.

DisRdatMan

Pirc,
You asked a question about the "value" of cards in a hand. The answer lies in the source of the value of a hand. That source is found in the relationship between the two starting cards (and eventually the relationship among those cards and the flop). To argue the value of a single card will not make sense. In this case, the answer can only be: "I don't know."

(If you mean that a starting hand with a 5 AND 10 has some added power, than let me introduce you to the illogic of unsuited starting hands that allow us to draw to TWO different flushes, not just a mere one.)

DisRdatMan

[Josh W]

Reread what I said....

I specifically said something like:

When I look at my hand, I don't want the first card I see to be a 5. I want it to be an Ace. I like those more. I like Kings more than Tens.

If I were better with computers, I'd make a friggin chart in excel, throw some html around, and show that the 'value jump' (i.e. increase in value) from a 4 in your hand to a 5 is a greater jump than from a 5 to a 6. Similarly, the jump from a 9 to a Ten is less than from a Ten to a Jack.

That's the relative INCREASE in value...not the value itself. A Jack still has more value, but the ratio of values decreases.

Like I said in my very very very first post, the increased value is very tiny. Mason has recently reitterated that point, so print out his post, frame it, bronze it, and take it as mortal law.

Josh