Players Union

[Randy_Refeld]

What you are talking about isn't that different than what the prop agency I currently work for does; in exchange for playing on the site (no schedules or anything just come and play when you want) we get our rake back.

[Michael Davis]

"you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site."

I concur.

-Michael

[Emperor]

IMO Granny is 100% correct...

Sometimes when you rock the boat... you tip it over and drown...


Although I do think a Site with a REAL players points system like PokerChamps or GamesGrid could make a run on the top sites with a decent marketing effort...

All it would take is for Party to eliminate rakeback completely. All of those rakeback sites would focus on sites that still give rakeback and REAL player points like PC and GG. That would cause a trickle of fish. A continuous trickle of fish to feed us would be all it would take for Party to lose the current players worried about rakeback.

[SinSixer]

What professional poker players need is an "Association", not a union.

[Losing all]

Nice idea. Good luck getting members to agree on anything though. As a former member of the UAW I can tell you that I thought they were nothing but a bunch of crooks. I didn't have to option to keep my job and bow out of the union. That option would be there for poker union members, and sooner or later the bosses will piss everyone off.

[teamdonkey]

to make this work you need some kind of leverage. The group you put together would have to be willing to play at different sites. The most likely initial result will be Party calling your bluff, and you'll have to broker a deal with a different site. When you approach them again several months later, you'll be able to get something done.

Granny - the second half of your post makes little sense in a market economy. If Party is financially succesful now with all the rakeback/affiliate payements/bonuses etc it gives away, cutting back on this would just create a spot for someone else to undercut them and take their business. If online poker keeps growing (and like you've said, it will probably boom again this summer) this becomes more obvious... a larger market means more competition. If Party stops giving back money it obviously doesn't need to turn a nice profit, another site absolutely will make it worth your while to move. If Dell stopped having sales and got rid of online coupons, without lowering their prices, would this help or hurt their long term profits?

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would have to respectfully disagree that any industry would want to run off their best customers. In fact, I can see a world where these online sites are competing for our business very aggressively if we market ourselves correctly.



[/ QUOTE ]

First sentence is correct.

Second sentence you falsely assume that high volume winning players are a poker sites best customers.

8 fish are playing in a game with 2 8-tabling 2+2 sharks. Who gets the money? The sharks make their 2 BB hour off the fish, cashes out and pays the rent with it; Party scoops up the remains.

10 fish in a game. Who gets the money? Party gets all of it over time.

Who do you think are "the whales" in Party's eyes? Who do you think are the "card-counters and advantage player scum"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent arguments by everyone... but as far as the "whale issue" is concerned, I believe the 8-tabling 2+2ers generate more rake over time than the casual fish. Sure, a table full of fish is going to generate the majority of rake per hour or whatever, but the 8-tabling 2+2er is putting in many more hours than the casual weekend player.

You get more miles per gallon with the 8-tabler in the long-run.

[grimel]

NHL Think about it.

[Stu Pidasso]

Hi Granny,

Couple of points where you and I agree.

1)The pokerboom is not going to end anytime soon
2)Volume Players will play at the poker site which provides the greatest synergy(which at the moment appears to be Party).

I disagree with people who say that the substantial number of high volume players who generate $50k-$100k in rake revenue per year per head have no value. We obviously have tremendous value and there has to be a way we can leverage our value for our own enrichment. In order to do that we have to organize into some an organization that represents our interest.

"Union" was a poor word choice on my part. It denotes an organization that is much rigid for the industry in which we derive our income. It also denotes an entity which has an adversarial relationship.

The relationship between volume player and the house is a synergystic, not adversarial. Whatever organzition, should it be formed, must also have a synergystic relationship. As stated earlier in this thread, we don't need a players union, what we need is an association.

I have more comments to make but I have some work I have to do.

Stu

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
"you guys overestimate how valuable you are to a site."

I concur.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

It takes me about 5 seconds to open poker tracker and find out exactly how valuable my business is. Now i don't generate 5 digit monthly rake figures, but my understanding is there are people on these forums that do. These people are extremely valuable to the sites they play on, and in any sort of organized group they represent a huge amount of bargaining power.

[ QUOTE ]
8 fish are playing in a game with 2 8-tabling 2+2 sharks. Who gets the money? The sharks make their 2 BB hour off the fish, cashes out and pays the rent with it; Party scoops up the remains.

10 fish in a game. Who gets the money? Party gets all of it over time.

Who do you think are "the whales" in Party's eyes? Who do you think are the "card-counters and advantage player scum"?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just ignorant. Party gets the same amount of rake from a table no matter what the fish/shark ratio is. You're not winning money from the site (like a card counter), but from the other players.

Advantages i have over a player who just created an account on party today:

1. i play multiple tables, which generates more rake
2. i play more hours/week, which generates more rake
3. the new player may end up being a long term rake contributer, but most likely will lose a few hundred dollars and quit. i will keep paying rake for at least the next few months, and more than likely the next few years.

How much more valuable am i rake wise than a new player? 25x? 50x? The number gets rediculous if you're talking about someone playing at higher stakes (i'm a low stakes guy). The point is, WE are the whales. These sites aren't just looking for new customers, they're looking for new customers who will eventually turn into us. A marketing strategy that takes us into account only makes good financial sense.