The "necessary for civilization" argument

[Al Schoonmaker]

As you correctly inferred, I did not read the other thread. I was referring only to the tendency that some people have to regard all animal testing as unethical. Some people believe that all animal testing should be prohibited, a position which would prevent the development of drugs that would save human lives.

Regards,

Al

[fimbulwinter]

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No you did not. I haven't heard you state a position on the issue. Enough with the double-speak.

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you haven't heard me state a position on the issue? If that is truly your sentiment then you don't possess the capacity to make any form of discourse worthwile. From what i've said in response to yourself and west my position and motives for that position could be easily discerned by a child.

fim

[Al Schoonmaker]

You asked, "Aren't they using volunteers?"

No, they are not. When I was teaching, undergrads had to participate in experiments. They were NOT told the purpose of most of the experiments for which they "volunteered." Yes, we did have the nerve to call them "volunteers" since they could have chosen researcher A rather than researcher B. We justified not telling them on the grounds that doing so would have affected the results.

They were supposed to be debriefed, but the debriefing process was often superficial. Since then the rules have become somewhat more protective of human subjects, but abuses still occur.

Researchers tend to have tunnel vision. They can be so committed to their research that ethical considerations are minimized or ignored. After all, it's all for a good purpose, SCIENCE, and they do think in capital letters about "science" (at least when it is their own project).

Regards,

Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

The placebo effect has been studied many, many times. We have even found that "active placebos" sometimes work better than "passive" ones. An active placebo is one that does something. It can be effervescent, or tasty, or make you burp, but you can see of feel something happening.

I just did a google search on "placebo effect. It got 256,000 hits. A search for "active placebo effect" got 212 hits.

Regards,

Al

[Hermlord]

My immediate point was that, if the placebo is working exactly as well as the drug, as in the hypothetical, there's no reason to use the drug, is there? My larger point (which granted was not obvious and transparent) was that more and better drugs are not always the answer. Maybe, oh I dunno, reducing carcinogens from big polluters, instead of relaxing environmental regulations at every opportunity, is a better solution.

Amazingly, I know what both the "placebo effect" and "google" are.

[Bodhi]

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Maybe, oh I dunno, reducing carcinogens from big polluters, instead of relaxing environmental regulations at every opportunity, is a better solution.

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I wholeheartedly agree. At the very least I'd like to see the United States adopt a carbon market like the EU.

[West]

Ah, the "threaten the opposing view that expressing their view is just going to harden people against it" defense.

Actually, no, I hadn't noticed that. I was expecting an email from PETA asking me to stop posting, but for some reason it hasn't come yet.

[West]

Well, I'm not sure what "all animal testing" encompasses, so it's hard for me to say, but I would consider "torturing" animals for the sake of saving human lives to be unethical, yes, and I don't consider that to be a position based on emotion rather than "rational analysis".

[West]

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Researchers tend to have tunnel vision. They can be so committed to their research that ethical considerations are minimized or ignored. After all, it's all for a good purpose, SCIENCE, and they do think in capital letters about "science" (at least when it is their own project).


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And I imagine this isn't solely because they are so thoroughly excited to further the knowledge of the human race.

[West]

Here is everything you have said in both threads, beginning with your response to my statement, "I don't find the torture of mice, rabbits, etc. for the furthering of human medical science to be morally defensible."

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such a logic-less, solipsistic, intellectual failure of an opinion is only possible in a world where modernized nations are overwhelmed by luxuries such as those made possible by animal testing.

fim

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I'm sorry you weren't able to go anywhere but UCD.

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I do however appreciate the fact that you are there and not elsewhere.

fim

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I almost went to Cal after they accepted me. Then i visited the campus and met people like you.

fim

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I fear many cal minds, yours especially, are so open that their brains have fallen out.

fim

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swing and a miss.

fim

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I'll throw you a bone:

The reason my peers and I don't share your armchair quarterback views on animals is due to the fact that we're the ones who actually understand the issue from both a research and personal perspective, not because we have any vested interest in a grandiose vision of furthering the human race.

I can guarantee you right now that i know more about the issue and have more experience with it. unless there is a ton of animal/medical research being done within competitive chess or nonprofit organization, you have no place interjecting your uninformed opinions on a subject as important as this one.

you wanted to know why i've granted you no leeway thus far? the above is why selfish ideologues like yourself get dealt with as such.

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have you yet noticed that your (west and bodhi) two pet threads have become venues for you to further alienate people from your beliefs and causes?

fim

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I did. the open minds here have failed at every turn to see any viewpoint other than their own. moreover they have shown the shallow ineptitude so often characteristic of people possessing strong viewpoints on subjects with which they have no experience, hence i have ceased to care.

fim

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you haven't heard me state a position on the issue? If that is truly your sentiment then you don't possess the capacity to make any form of discourse worthwile. From what i've said in response to yourself and west my position and motives for that position could be easily discerned by a child.

fim


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Ok, well I guess we can tell you're in favor of animal testing (I won't say torture this time). Why? Well...I guess it's because it's made it possible for you to be overwhelmed with luxuries.

Well, @$#%, we must have missed that, I can't imagine why all discussion didn't end right there. Just curious, which luxuries are you referring to? Indoor plumbing? A refrigerator? A car?

I know I have no business interjecting my uniformed opinions on a subject as important as this one, but your position as stated seems kind of shallow. Even though it's based upon a wealth of knowledge and experience, I have to tell you, I'm not sure the morality of it would hold up to rigorous debate.