Floormen, managers, dealers: Want to be an expert witness? (long)

[youtalkfunny]

Mason,

There's no one on this board whom I respect more than you. I'd say that 5% of my 2+2 posts have been hero worship directed your way.

Which is why I urge you to ask a few dealers about this, and tell me what they say.

In this thread, and the OOT thread, people who have actually dealt poker have been more sympathetic and understanding. Which is why I came here soliciting testimony I can submit to an arbitrator who has never dealt poker before, and for all I know has never played poker.

I'm here to tell you, this job wears on your brain. When your brain gets tired, and you're doing a monotonous job, you're capable of doing some unthinkable things. Like spreading a flop in a stud game. To someone who's never dealt, it's incomprehensible. To someone who has any experience at all, it's something that they've probably done themselves.

Mason, you've seen flops spread in stud games; dealers pitch two hole cards to Omaha players, not when they first sat, but in the middle of the down; conversely, trying to pitch four cards to hold'em players; players with brightly colored "Missed Blind" buttons dealt in...and you've seen these errors committed by the best dealers you can think of.

Why would you think the rake is any different?

I know this sounds prejudiced, but I'm one of those dealers that when your playing, and you're getting vexed with the incompetence of the dealers, you're glad to see me sit down. You can now focus on playing the game, and feel secure that the game will be well run, more quickly paced, and above all accurate. I used to hear all the time, "Bobby, thank God you're here!", and I'm not talking about those superstitious players who think I'm going to change their luck.

Sure, everybody thinks they're good at what they do. But I'm quite confident that the players and staff at the Grand in Tunica would put me on the short list of the best dealers in the room--that is, before they fired me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen them take the wrong amount on many occasions, but neglecting by accident to take the rake is not in my experience.

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This line got me to thinking....

I don't think I've ever taken the wrong amount in my life--except those times that I take nothing.

And it now dawns on me that every time I've forgotten to take a rake, ever, every one of those pots has something in common: the amount of the pot dictated a max rake before the flop (or on 3rd street in stud).

When you're counting the pot, you always know how much is in there, and you're focusing on it. But once it goes over the "max" number, you stop counting--and stop focusing on the rake.

And it's easy to lose that focus when you're tired.

Especially when there's a huge pot in the middle of the table, that figures to get even bigger. Now you're REALLY focused on the action. It would be disatrous if someone acted out of turn here, or made a string-raise. There's a lot more at stake for these customers. Any disputes in this hand would be particularly messy.

So you keep everyone acting in turn, you make damn sure the action is complete before you put out the last card, you push the pot to the winner, you move the button, you pull the handle to drop the rake, and you hear....nothing. No chips fell down the hole, because you forgot to take the rake. And you feel very foolish. You hope no one noticed--and unless the dealer behind you causes an investigation to be launched, no one did.

One last thing, not just to Mason, but to all readers of this thread: I'm not trying to make a case that they should not have fired me (although I obviously think so). I am only disputing their position that I am a thief. If you think I should have been fired for failing to follow procedure, I would argue, but probably wouldn't convince you. I am not disputing the dismissal--merely the "misconduct" ruling.

If I need to present evidence to dissuade you of a "misconduct" position, here it is:

--I worked at this casino for close to four years, as a dealer, tournament coordinator, and floorman. If I were a thief looking for a score, I had countless oppurtunities as Tournament Director or floorman, where I had access to all sorts of cash (promotional money give-aways, not to mention re-buy pools) with no checks and balances in place. Instead, I spent that time building a reputation of integrity.

--*IF* I failed to take a rake on three pots--I didn't see the tape, so it's not a given that those were rakable pots--what about the other pots that down? How many hands per hour do you suppose a 3-handed NL game sees? Fifty? Sixty? The number is much higher than a typical ring game. Let's say sixty. We'll say that Dealer X dealt 30, and I dealt 30. Dealer X took no rake, for 30 hands. If I'm just as dirty as Dealer X, why did I rake the other 27 hands? If I'm a thief, who conspired to defraud the casino of its rightful rake, why did I rake all those other hands?

--Again, one break in nine hours leads to terribly sloppy dealing. I'm not proud that I missed $3 in rake, but compared to the errors that tired dealer COULD make in a NL game, I'd say that's not so bad--and it doesn't come close to "misconduct".

--A $1 rake in a three-handed game is highly unusual in that room. Traditionally, the rake gets reduced for 5-6 players, and waived entirely for four or fewer. If my tired brain spent any time on autopilot, it may have been stuck in "no rake 3-handed" mode, where it has been for years.

So let's not discuss competence any further, or whether they were right or wrong to fire me--since I don't want to work for them any more, these points are moot.

Let's keep the discussion to: was there misconduct or dishonesty involved?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Randy:

When dealers are trained the thing that's emphasized the most is be sure to take the rake. I agree that there are times when the amount raked isn't correct, but forgetting to rake is a different story.

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi youtalkfunny:

I did talk to some dealers and a manager tonight. Everyone said that if a dealer is caught on camera not taking the rake in several hands like you describe that dealer will be fired and he will have no recourse.

As for the other errors you describe, such as dealing flops in stud games, I have seen that many times. However, when dealing, the thing that is emphasized in your training probably more than anything else, and also emphasized on the job, is to get that rake. That's why I've never seen this error.

But that's not really the issue here. What you're asking and what is the issue at hand is can you do anything to either recover your job or get some unemployment compensation. In my opinion the answer is no. This is nothing personal, just the way I see it.

Unless you can somehow prove that what the casino claims to have on film doesn't exist, I don't think you should be wasting your time trying to solve this problem. Your time would be much better spent looking for a different job, perhaps in a different line of work.

Best wishes,
Mason

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
But that's not really the issue here. What you're asking and what is the issue at hand is can you do anything to either recover your job or get some unemployment compensation. In my opinion the answer is no.

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When I described the incident to the man at the Unemployment office, he said that they'd look into it, and if they determined that I wasn't stealing, I should be eligible for unemployment benefits.

So that's the only issue. WAS I STEALING? I'm not interested in reversing my dismissal.

In your opinion, was I stealing? If you were the arbitrator, and the facts of the case were as I have presented here, would you concur with the casino's opinion that I was engaged in a plot to steal?

[betgo]

If you didn't take the rake by accident, then you were fired for incompetence and you are eligible for unemployment. If you did not take the rake becasue you were stealing, then you were fired for misconduct and you are not eligible for unemployment.

In your initial post, you say you were tricked into saying you might not have taken the rake, but now you seem to be conceeding that this is true. Maybe you don't know whether you did or not and your employer implied you made these errors.

I think you have a pretty good case to get unemployment compensation, because it may be difficult for your employer to show you were stealing. Regardless of what really happened, you may want to consider whether you want to continue with this line of work.

[youtalkfunny]

Thanks, betgo, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.

(Although I think you guys are a little harsh with the "find another line of work, you incompetent slob!" tone. If you ever saw me deal a push that included fewer than six consecutive 30-minute downs, I think you'd be pleased with my performance. I've never auditioned for a job and been told, "You're not good enough to deal here." I've got years of incident-free experience, that should not be discarded because of this one incident.)

[Moneyline]

n/t

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
When dealers are trained the thing that's emphasized the most is be sure to take the rake.

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Hi Mason,
Your statement above is not entirely correct. When I have been involved in training dealers that is not emphasized the most. When I was trained and watched Dan Paymar train dealers that was not emphasixed the most. It is mentioned that your primary job is to get the rake, but making the game a pleasant experience for the casino guests is wehre the emphasis is placed. You are right that missing the rake in a routine, well paced game is very uncommon; missing the rake in an unevenly paced game is very common. The official "correct" answer is "the rake is very important and the dealer would never miss it." Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time supervising dealers I can tell you it is missed way too much.

Randy

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this sounds prejudiced, but I'm one of those dealers that when your playing, and you're getting vexed with the incompetence of the dealers, you're glad to see me sit down. You can now focus on playing the game, and feel secure that the game will be well run, more quickly paced, and above all accurate. I used to hear all the time, "Bobby, thank God you're here!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I have supervised Bobby in both Vegas and Mississippi. He is what I would consider a "typical good dealer." If you are sitting in LA or Vegas that doesn't sound so good, but I have little tolerance for poor dealers. The room he was working in is a 14 table and they have maybe 3 dealers that are employable outside of Mississippi. When I was in Vegas I had no idea how weak the dealers were in Mississippi; if one of these many dealers that work in MS had come to me for an audition in Vegas I would have referred them to a dealing school because I would have formed the opinion they had never dealt poker in a casino. Also noteworthy to this matter is there is a dealer in this room that has a reputation as the worst dealer in Tunica(when I would clock her I never saw her get over 10 hands out in a 10 handed game without a shuffle machine), on more than one occasion I personally gave her written notice that failing to take the rake is inappropiate and she continues to work there. As far as the original poster, if he wanted to move back to the west he could find a job tomorrow without a problem.

Randy Refeld