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#22
03-18-2005, 03:24 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
If you allow the Ten Commandments inside a government building, then you have to allow every other religion(that doesn't hold the Ten Commandments as sacred) to put something there(assuming they want to). I can put a gigantic GI Joe figure in there because maybe he's important to me.
Otherwise you're favoring some religions over others, and that's wrong. 
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#23
03-18-2005, 03:26 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The TC is a religious document, plain and simple. [/ QUOTE ] What makes it a religious document? That it invokes the Almighty? [/ QUOTE ] If you seriously contend that the TC is not a religious document, then you are not debating honestly. Of course it is religious. "I am the Lord thy God ... " Can you really say that has nothing to do with religion? Be serious. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But a monument on public property puts government itself in the position of endorsing the TC. [/ QUOTE ] Explain. I'm interested in why this display endorses a particular religion and why it's purpose isn't to give a hat tip to some of the foundations for our moral and legal society. [/ QUOTE ] Its purpose is not at issue. It is a religious document, and its display tacitly endorses the Judeo-Christian religious belief system to the exclusion of all others. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But when government itself endorses a religious document, what recourse do I have if I disagree? [/ QUOTE ] Vote in someone who will take it down? Hold a referenda on whether it should stay or go? Again, what if it is art we're talking about? Should religious art be removed from all public places? To what extent should we purge anything smelling of religion? [/ QUOTE ] That's not the issue. There is no intent on my part to purge anything smelling of religion. Let me give an example: In case you haven't guessed it yet, I am not a Christian. As it happens, one of my favorite pieces of music is Handel's "Messiah", an example of religious art. But if government required the playing of the "Messiah" in the schools, I would oppose that. It is not government's place to favor one religion over another in any way whatsoever. GG
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#24
03-18-2005, 03:28 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
I still disagree that it's an endorsement and not that it is an acknowledgment of principals that are found in the U.S. legal system as well as general morals.
Lets see ... I believe there is something about not blaspheming in the TC. I believe that the constitution permits me to blaspheme. It is called freedom of speech. The legal system has nothing in it about adultery. Not a crime.
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#26
03-18-2005, 03:33 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
Mentioning God (or if you prefer god) is not a problem IMO(although some seem to make it out to be).
Displaying the Ten Commandments in a town hall is problem.
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#27
03-18-2005, 03:34 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
more to the point, if i want put "there is no god" on the courthouse would you take issue with it?
how about "god is dead, and we have killed him - nietsczhe" or "faith is blind" what about some basic principles of physics or chemistry? what about darwin's theory of evolution? what about "nationalism is an infantile disease - einstein" what about "religion weakens the mind" what about... you get the idea
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#28
03-18-2005, 03:35 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
I'd have no problem with that. We'd have to allow it if we allow the Ten Commandments.
Obviously I don't want any of this. I'm just trying to prove to our fundie friend here that he's being exclusive.
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#30
03-18-2005, 03:48 AM
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Re: Separation of church and state
[ QUOTE ]
If you seriously contend that the TC is not a religious document, then you are not debating honestly. Of course it is religious. "I am the Lord thy God ... " Can you really say that has nothing to do with religion? Be serious. [/ QUOTE ] Arg..you people are frustrating. Could we please stop reading in motives and saying things I'm not? I was asking what qualifies a document as religious. I've never said anything to the contrary of the TC being religious. That's why I need to know what qualifies something as religous. There have been many historical documents that may qualify as religious (and thereby in need of banishment from public property, if I understand your position correctly). [ QUOTE ] Its purpose is not at issue. It is a religious document, and its display tacitly endorses the Judeo-Christian religious belief system to the exclusion of all others. [/ QUOTE ] It's this kind of ignorance that is pushing people to wish to ban things like the Declaration of Independence. You all know damned well that the reason the TC are in a few public buildings is NOT to convert everyone to Christianity or Catholicism or Protestantism. So stop pretending like it. [ QUOTE ] But if government required the playing of the "Messiah" in the schools, I would oppose that. It is not government's place to favor one religion over another in any way whatsoever. [/ QUOTE ] As far as I know, there haven't been any governments forcing the TC to be displayed in all the courts. I would also be opposed to such a law. But by your own admission, doesn't the mere existance of "Messiah" in a school create an endorsement of Christianity?
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