Hand values in maniac games

[Viscant]

My normal live game plays like this and I do well in it, so I'll just say what I do.

I play any pair from any position preflop for any price (this is limit, right?). When the whole table is coming along to the flop with you, right there you already have appropraite odds to draw to a set. If I don't hit a set, I'm gone. This goes for anything up to a queen, occasionally even kings and aces have to be dumped if they don't improve, although a low board pair is often enough improvement for those hands. Pairs are profitable and have the side effect of being easy to play. No set, you get out. You hit your set, the idiots pay you off.

I play Axs any time, any position. Any 2 suited broadway from MP and later, hell any position in some games. Depending on the game, Kxs can be profitable from MP and later also if the situation is right.

Other than that, position matters tremendously. People say to play middle suited connectors from EP and MP, but I disagree. I find that these hands are only profitable for me from LP.

Also this brings up the question of whether these maniacs are true maniacs. If they continue betting with nothing then this gets easier. If they're strong hand readers who will cap with anything and drop out on the flop to strength, you need to be more careful with your Axs and your small pairs from EP.

[pzhon]

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If possible, I try to see the flop as cheaply as possible (calling) even with big pocket pairs.

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That's horrible advice. When you raise with KK, who benefits, you or the people with 92o? You do, by a huge amount. Every extra dollar you put in preflop is returned with a lot of interest.

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All pairs are playable, but even pocket AA are often junk if it doesn't hit trips against a lot of players.

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Nonsense. AA unimproved holds up frequently. Even TPTK holds up frequently. When you have such a hand, get a lot of money into the pot. Again, every dollar you put in will return more than $1.

It should take a lot of convincing to tell you that your overpair is behind. Even when it is not the best made hand, overpairs like AA often have enough winning chances to be a favorite in a multiway pot. The chance of improving to top set is not great, but that can be combined with opportunities to counterfeit your opponent's 2-pair hand plus runner-runner draws.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=832631
Board: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 0.265
T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 0.440 (top two pair)
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 0.046
K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 0.177
5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 0.073

Don't confuse winning less than 50% of the time with being unhappy to see more money go into the pot. In this example, AA wins more than 20% of the time, but only has to contribute 20% of the money going in. Every $1 put in with AA returns $1.32. Folding would be horrible.

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Once again, even if you hit your high card in the A/X, K/X, Q/X, dump them if you didn't hit 2 pair or better.

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Once again, don't do that because you are often ahead, and if you aren't you can improve or your opponent can be counterfeited.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

In general, you want to play good drawing hands. Few hands can win unimproved, you ought to try and draw to five-card hands. You want to play the sorts of hands where even if you knew one player that had top set, if a lot of loose players are also still in the pot after the flop, you would still stay in with most of the flops that fit your hand. Even if you flop a gutshot, sometimes the action is so big that you have the odds to call both the flop and turn and you'll still get paid off.

I find that I am playing about the same number of hands, but I am playing different hands. In a tighter game, there are situations where I will raise with AJ off in late position, after a limper or two. I would never play that hand in a wild game. On the other hand, T9 off can sometimes be played.

Normally, you don't bother to raise in these sorts of games unless you have the nuts because people will do your betting for you. I remember one session where I had aces on the button twice and both times it was already capped preflop before it got to me. On the other hand, capping with a hand like JT suited on the button after most of the table is in for three bets is a +EV play given sufficient opponents.

Loose aggressive maniacal games are paradoxical on the river. Your good non-nut hands are reduced somewhat in value because you are somewhat more likely to run into the nuts, but your fair non-stellar hands rise in because your opponents are more likely to have mediocre hands and you can call more single bets, even with scary boards.

[RadioMike]

I unexpectedly found myself playing in one of these games last night. My local $3-6 game, which is normally loose-passive preflop, suddenly became loose-aggressive and nearly every hand was capped at $12 pre-flop. Perhaps the drunken spirits of St Patrick's day effected the play.

Anyway, I suffered a series of bad beats, and took a horrific $250 beating. I'll put the bad beats at the end, just to assist my own mental healing. You guys can skip 'em if you want - no comments are needed (it's just for me - typing them in will make me feel better).

Anyway, I did learn that in games like this the swing can be much larger. This 3-6 game was essentially turned into a 12-24 game by the maniacs - and I did not have the bankroll in my pocket to handle the swing.

Thanks for the suggestions on the low suited connectors - I will keep that in mind if my game transforms like this again. I normally throw them away unless I'm near the button and there are lots of limpers.

-mike

Every hand capped pre-flop:

J-10 suited.... flop JJ9.... I raise raise raise, but concerned about J with better kicker... running queens, lose to Q-J boat.

AA suited... flop K82, no flush... I raise raise raise...lose to maniac who called four bets pre-flop with K2...

QQ... flop KQ3... raise raise raise... lose to flush on river

and my favorite... AKo... flop K63, no flush... I raise raise raise... a blank and then a 6 on the river... I'm concerned about a boat, and the maniac turns over 10-6 offsuit.

At this point I was broke. I proceeded to leave the table and get very drunk.

[Nomad84]

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AA suited...

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[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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a lot depends on how the post flop play is. If they play well post-flop, and continue to be aggressive you need to tred carefully.

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You need to tread carefully? You need to get the hell out is what you need to do.

If a game changes enough that you don't know what to do the answer is obvious. Get up and leave. Find out what you ARE supposed to do and come back.

[zephed56]

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1st off. Position is relative to the maniacs, not necsarily to your position to the button.

I play all suited broadways JT and up. AKo. All pairs. All Axs.

Pretty simple really.

b

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You won't play AQo?

[johnc]

I don't agree with maniacs being good card readers. Once in great while they are. The B&M experience has hammered home that fact b/c they'll many times come out and say "I don't care if I win, I'm just here for the excitment" (real quote!). They're action freaks. Betting does not have the same meaning as it does for smart players. I'm having a terrible time not tilting (thanks for that advice) at the table. Hand values aside, I'm convinced that strong postflop play and POSITION on these fools are the key.

[k_squared]

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I don't agree with maniacs being good card readers. Once in great while they are.

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Be careful! some of the best card readers are maniacs!!! because they play the most hands they get a lot of experience in situations where they have to figure out if they are ahead or behind with middle or bottom pair. Many other types of players are almost NEVER in this situation and if they hit their hand are more than likely ahead, and if they miss their hand behind.

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They're action freaks. Betting does not have the same meaning as it does for smart players.... Hand values aside, I'm convinced that strong postflop play and POSITION on these fools are the key.

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You are right betting doesn't have as specific a meaning when it comes from a maniac (especially before the flop). It means they want to play their hand. One thing to keep in mind is to watch how their betting changes when they are up/down or have just won/lost a hand. Often times these factors cause their gears to shift dramatically. A 'maniac' might only be a player steaming off a buy-in after a few bad beats!!! so be careful in ascribing that status to him if his play suddenly changes.

Another point... If you are playing a table full of maniacs position is meaningless to talk about!!! When does position matter? When being in that position allows you to read the situation more accurately. How are you going to read the situation more accurately when you are sitting with a table full of maniacs? (Answer: YOU AREN'T)... Maniacs are maniacs because they play any two cards and play them aggressively. You don't beat a table full of maniacs by having position you beat them by having better cards than they do. Position allows you to make moves, to bluff and value bet, but it doesn't change anything about playing a table full of maniacs. You know exaclty what will happen on each street... the betting will be capped. They only question is if your hand is good enough to stay.

POSITION MATTERS WHEN YOU HAVE 1-2 MANIACS... not a table full of them!!! And it matters not because it will help you 'play the maniac batter' but because it will allow you to manipulate the rest of your opponents more effectively (which might be construed as playing the maniac better... but my point is that position doesn't give you an added advantage over the maniac. It gives you an added advantage over the rest of the table. To illustrate this point imagine the maniac is a CPU with the always raise button clicked. You can't change your outcome against that opponent by being in a different position because they will always act the same regardless of where you are or what you do, but you can use the fact that they will always raise to your advantage against a table full of opponents.) If you are before the maniac, you will know when someone with a real hand is in and can get out of the way, or ttry to make moves on them by raising and having the maniac reraise you! Or even better, if you are right after the maniac you will be able to re-raise him (or her) to face your opponents with calling 3 bets to stay in the hand.

Interestingly, people talked earlier in this topic about playing suited connectors against maniacs... and I am not sure that is good advice unless you are in a situation where you are playing lots of people after the flop. If it is a table full of maniacs, go for it... the pot odds are going to be there the vast majority of the time (you know that because maniacs tend to play predicatably before the flop... they raise!). On the other hand, if you only have 1-2 maniacs at the table the question becomes much more complicated. Why play a 6-7 suited in a hand where you will be heads up with an opponent who will play almost anything? There is a good chance that he will have a better hand than you (they don't only play bad hands...), and unless you hit your hand strongly you will be in a bad position. If you have a pair it will be a low one, in which case any other cards taht come will likel make you scared (and they should scare you!). Or, if you hit that strong draw you played the cards for you will often be forced to call bets/raises without the appropriate pots odds! If multiple people are in the pot it is likely that each street will have atleast a raise, and probably more than one, and if multiple people aren't in the pot then 6-7 suited loses most of its value... either way you are not in a game with the conditions to play suited connectors well. Suited connectors are only worth playing if you get a lot of other people in the hand with you. Otherwise wait for hands with more immediate value when they hit (i.e. will give you a strong pair).

The key to beating an opponent who is a maniac (will raise anything and will play to the end with any pair or even just high card) is to start with better cards and to value bet the hell out of them. You have to have better starting cards because the maniac's style of play makes them difficult to read. They play their hands in an illogical way that is not about maximizing value, but rather about maximizing their enjoyment/action. They bet and raise on whims, and so reading their hands is very difficult (although this is not true of all 'maniacs' some maniacs are only that loose aggressive pre-flop and play a predicatable style after the flop of betting/calling when they hit something-even a weak draw, and folding when they don't hit anything... although I would argue a TRUE maniac doesn't really worry to much about what they hit and figures they can just bet you out of the pot, or that they might get lucky).

If you are playing a field of maniacs it is still true that you need the best hand to win (bluffing rarely works) except the flop becomes significantly more important because so many people are in the hand! Hand values change in so far as you have to make a stronger hand on average to win, but you will be winning pots that are much larger proprtionally. Playing with a table of maniacs is not a common thing, but seeing the difference between playing a table full of them and one or two is important.

-k_squared

[k_squared]

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a lot depends on how the post flop play is. If they play well post-flop, and continue to be aggressive you need to tred carefully.

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You need to tread carefully? You need to get the hell out is what you need to do.

If a game changes enough that you don't know what to do the answer is obvious. Get up and leave. Find out what you ARE supposed to do and come back.

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What are you talking about? How does that have any relevance to what I said about being careful if they are what I would call a 'thinking maniac'? (thinking maniac=very aggressive pre-lop and tricky post-flop)

Just because you can't read their hands doesn't mean you shouldn't play them. Further I would argue anyone who says they can tell you what a maniac has is lying. What makes them a maniac is that they are willing to raise unpredicatebly and hence become VERY difficult to read. Beating them requires you adjust to their play, and it requires that you tread carefully when playing them. Don't simply call down with ace high everytime if they are good post-flop players. I have played with some people who might be called maniacs (raise 40% of their hands and play 75%) and whose post-flop play was excellent. They took advantage of their position and image and made a lot of money from the tight players who didn't adjust and would always call down with Ace-King unimproved (or worse), which is not to say you shouldn't do this now and again, but if the person is a 'thinking maniac' super aggressive pre-flop and tricky, but not reckless post-flop, you have to adjust your play and getting value often requires you to play deceptively and to mix up your own strategies.

You obviosuly should leave a game if you don't know how to play in it, and your goal is to make money... on the other hand if your goal is to learn how to play in that game it might very well bet worth it to stick around and get some experience playing in it.

-k_squared