An ethics question - is using software to track dead cards cheating?

[PoorLawyer]

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Later in the evolution of online, the poker rooms themselves will have no choice but to make these tools easy to use and readily available to all players.

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THIS is what would make it not cheating.

[BeerMoney]

Dan, what you don't seem to understand, is that if the website deems it against the rules, then its cheating. That leaves no room for interpretation.

[Dan Mezick]

Can you name that program or website here or PM me the info? Thanks in advance, Dan++

[Dan Mezick]

Beer,

No. Cheating is a fundamental ethical issue, not governed by the poker rooms. Individuals govern personal ethical conduct.

The poker rooms are hosting poker. If they add rules, then it is some other game, not poker. If I create a chess site and then change the fundamental rules and attempt to enforce them as a condition of participation, I am hosting some other game, not chess.

There are technology solutions to almost rule these rooms might impose. Your own private network, virtual PC technology etc all provide the needed indirection.

Remembering key poker facts with digital assistance when playing in the digital medium is not cheating. It's smart poker and completely ethical, since anyone willing to invest effort can get and digitize the info available to every opponent.

Poker is the most honest game in the world. Poker acknowledges you can do anything (lie, use deception, leverage certain emotional info on opponents to tilt people, etc etc) to win. But you cannot cheat. These explicit understanding (and that last exception about cheating) makes poker the best and most honest game in the world.

Poker is just like real life, only more so.

Many people fail to make the distinctions that follow from these statements. In other walks of life, lying, using indirection or use of deception is never acknowledged as a valid tactic, or "good". Poker pulls no punches. It's honest.

It is a mistake to assume that a game that explicitly encourages deception also encourages cheating. Deception and lying and indirection are 100% in-bounds in poker, while cheating (defined earlier) is never allowed. In other walks of life, lying and cheating and deception are in the same category. They are out-of-bounds.

This is what makes poker great. It's a brutally honest game and a perfect mirror to observe your own thinking, and the thinking of others.

Both of these forms of observation (of self, of others) are impossible without first being honest with yourself.

Poker probably promotes the development of some major facets of human consciousness.

Reference:
Poker and Consciousness

[PoorLawyer]

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Beer,

Remembering key poker facts with digital assistance when playing in the digital medium is not cheating. It's smart poker and completely ethical, since anyone willing to invest effort can get and digitize the info available to every opponent.



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In addition to investing effort you also have to a) know that this technology exists and b) invest additional money apparently (something about $55 at some site).

Why should someone have to find and pay for technology just to be at an even level of play?
The counter argument to this is the inevitable one of "how is this different than reding poker books are going on 2+2 or other sites to improve your game. Poker is iinherently not a level playing field. You have to search to find those things and be willing to put in the effort, etc."
I think this line of reasoning is flawed. It is completely different to study game theory and probabilities on a macro level than it is to have software track real-time info about the hand you are currently playing in. Any player who isnt aware of this software is at an unfair disadvantage.
Even if you can memorize the cards that are out, most people can't remember every card with the exact suits. It is a natural disadvantage if you are able to do this, but if you are using a computer to do it for you, that nudges the line closer to cheating.

[FeliciaLee]

It's very interesting to see so much outside interest in this thread. Some people I can't ever remember coming to the Stud forum before [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I hope this will help pick up such a wonderful game, on a fantastic forum!

It's also nice to see Dan back in the mix! You are way too bright for words. I tend to like people who make me think harder about something than I've ever thought. Gives me a headache, almost, thinking so hard ("No, it's not a tum-a").

Thanks, guys!

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[BeerMoney]

OK, so I can punch you in the face if I don't mind you or other people punching me in the face? I'm sorry, but the old cliche of treat others the way you would like to be treated doesn't always work in grown up situations.


We are not free to make up our own rules. When I agree to play on party poker, I make an agreement to play by the rules they govern, and everyone else is obligated too. We are not free to interpret the rules and make things up as we go along.

That is all I will say on the issue.

[beset7]

Dan,

Interesting posts and I wish I had more time to respond to each of your ideas individually but I don't.

I will, however, provide an alternate defintion of cheating (as you requested). I believe the definition you've chosen serves a somewhat circular function in your argument and in that sense is self-serving. It is, however, a reasonable, if not overly nuanced definition of cheating, so I will provide with mine (which, incidentally, comes from the American Heritage Dictionary of American English).

"Cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game."

So, if the use of artificial intelligence to track dead cards on multiple tables simultanously is against the rules at a particular site, then it is cheating. You are correct that this isn't poker: it's ONLINE poker. The game is the same; the setting is different. It calls for different "house rules" to protect the integrity of the game. Deliberately violating those rules is cheating (under the definition I employ).

Nice posts though. Thanks for the contribution...

Beset7

[Dan Mezick]

First of all, I love FeliciaLee. Let the record show that.

Secondly:

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So, if the use of artificial intelligence to track dead cards on multiple tables simultanously is against the rules at a particular site, then it is cheating.

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We have not brought in the whole bot thing on this thread, but the 'ai' point suggests it above.

There is no AI in a typical computer program, you are simply automating a manual task using available info when you use a program to track dead cards in stud.

Bots in my view are different animals that need their own container, corral, or zoo. We can start a huge thread on a formal definition of poker, but before we go there, let's all agree poker is a game played between individual human beings.

In the end, bot-poker will likely become the sport of nerds, with bot-human and bot-bot heads-up, 6-max and full ring competitions. I can also forsee a day when a derivative form of poker is played as a team sport against killer limit-holdem bots.

I do not forsee a day when any program will ever be the best at no-limit play.

Getting back to the cheating thing-- I stand by my position and respect the opposing arguments of others. 2+2 is a tremendous example of what makes the web great.

[DeeJ]

Hey I never play stud but I heard about this interesting thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would say that note taking is OK. If using Playerview to give an assessment of a player looseness, aggression etc and other tendencies and Pokertracker to give a rundown of historic behaviour is perfectly OK, then I can't see that recording discarded stud cards is anything other than fine.

I think you have to accept that this is bound to happen when playing stud online. What is not acceptable is sharing your hands with other players!

So it's obviously not cheating since writing stuff down isn't cheating (when playing online).

As someone said, but if you can't memorise cards you'll never make a great B&M stud player....