Conservatives are born rich!

[player24]

Many (most) people do not arrive at adulthood without personal experiences which bias their "research".

I'm a New York Yankee fan, but I did not arrive at this point through research - I owe it to my grandfather for setting me straight at an early age.

[Voltorb]

Okay, its time for a poker analogy. Being born with a silver spoon in your mouth is like sitting down at a holdem tournament and catching the most exciting run of cards in your life. Every other starting hand you are dealt is one of top four. Even when you get dealt the occasional ace deuce suited, you flop a disconnected flush and proceed to rake in the pot. In short, your odds of success are extremely high, even if you're the dumbest player in the entire field.

On the other hand, being born into rags is like sitting down at a poker tournament and catching the worst run of cards you've ever seen in your life. You don't see a premium starting hand for several hundred deals. Your low pocket pairs won't hit sets. Your suited connectors won't make anything. If you manage to win, it was through extraordinary skill, combined with a few lucky pots. The vast majority of the time you bust out way ahead of the money.

With hard work and luck the one who is born poor can move up. What is more likely, however, is that the guy with the silver spoon hanging off his lip is going to lay a horrendous beat on that poor bastard.

It's not that it's impossible to move up from poverty; it's that it's improbable.

[BCPVP]

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Hard work is no longer a guarantee of financial success or even financial stability.

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I would agree that hard work in and of itself is not a guarantee of financial success/stability. I think a lot has to do with finding something you're good at. I could work my ass off trying to become an NFL football player, but I just don't have the natural abilty. And no amount of hard work is going to dramatically affect that. I have to find something I'm good at and that there is a market for. And I believe it is my responsibility to find out what I'm good at, and that the government would not help me accomplish that.

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But it is without a doubt hard for those who work at the lower end of the pay scale to subsist these days.

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I disagree. Look at the standard of living for the lower class of America and compare that with the standard of living for the lower class in most African countries. Much of the lower class has a lot of things that the lower class in other countries do not, like a TV, a car, air conditioning sometimes, a roof over their heads etc.

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I worked in a warehouse for several months where the base pay was $6.25 per hour.

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Funny, just a few months ago, I was working third shift at a plant that recycles paper for $10 per hour. No qualifications. Just cutting open boxes and dumping their contents in a dumpster. So sometimes, you need to search the job market for better if you think you can do better.

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There was this woman suppoting two kids who had been working there for two years. She had a decent working record. For all the time she had been there, she received a fifteen cent raise. And others speak of upward mobility.

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True, there probably isn't a great deal of upward mobility in unskilled labor jobs But then again, she's only worked there two years. Upward mobility isn't instant and it isn't guaranteed. Nor should it be. It also doesn't sound like this woman has made the best decisions in her life. If she's working in a warehouse for near minimum wage, it sounds like she hasn't gone to college. She also has two kids, which it doesn't like she can support very well, especially if she's raising them by herself. That could mean that she got pregnant before she was ready and in a lasting relationship (I'm speculating here but this could apply to a lot of people as well). All represent decisions made in her life that have affected her, and are not the fault of anyone else. That may sound harsh, but I'm a pretty firm believer in taking responsiblity for one's actions.

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If it takes money to make money, how do those with no money make it?

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A question best answered, I think, by reading the Rich Dad/Poor Dad series. Very easy reads, and that issue is the central focus of the two books.


The rest of your post seems to focus on a concept that's too abstract for the discussion at hand and has little to do with what or how individuals can improve their lifestyles. If what you say is the case, then it doesn't seem that any amount of government intervention is going to change that that doesn't involve serious restrictions on our liberty. But that's a discussion for another time.

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Maybe its because there are so many reasons as to why people find themselves in poverty, with very little chance to get out.

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One last comment. I forgot to mention the importance of attitude in determining one's success. When you sit down at a poker table, do you wallow in self-pity about your losing sessions? Do you think to yourself, "Man, I hope I just don't lose too much this session."? Or do you think, "I'm going to play the best I can and take these peoples' money."? Can you see how one's attitude can affect one's performance? Can you see how a pessimistic attitude like this one does nothing to help others in bad situations? Attitude is probably as important as hard work and natural ability are when it comes to determining success.

[BCPVP]

I'm glad we established that you aren't so cynical as to believe that upward mobility is impossible.

I'm glad to hear that your mother survived. Reminds me of one of my best friends who's mother was diagnosed with cancer and given 6 months to live. She's past the 6 months and I hope she continues to live. I would agree that what the company did was unethical and agree that your father made the right decision by leaving as soon as possible. If companies behave badly, that should be the result as well as informing others of their behavior.

But I fail to see how government intervention would have improved the situation much more. And your story, imo, goes to prove my point. Your family perservered through tough times and hopefully are doing much better. And it sounds like your father's hard work and determination was largely responsible. That's exactly what I'm getting at. While there are people out there who have it rough, attitude and hard work will pay off in the long run.

[Voltorb]

Damn, you make it sound so easy. 30-35 hours a week!?! Did you actually spend seven hours a day in school? Not counting lunch, that's 60-65 hours a week, plus homework and chores. Either you didn't sleep much, or you cared not for leisure time. Right on...

Seriously though, some people are too stupid to go to college. This is why I support free vocational training in high school. These programs need to be expanded and more options opened up. My school had a program like this, but if you didn't want to be an auto mechanic or something similar it wasn't for you. I agree with Adam Corolla. There are far too many children in college who are wasting time and money which would better be spent in vocational training, they just haven't figured that out yet.

The currently inflated student population results in college becoming like a high-high school. A bachelor's degree is not all that respected anymore. I don't know what you majored in or even if that is relevant to your professional life. I don't know when you applied for your first job or when you were first hired in your professional capacity. However, I hear these days the outlook for a recent college graduate is pretty slim.

Yeah, it must be nice having accomplished all that given so little. You must feel real proud. Time will only tell if you were one of the last generations to partially fulfill the American Dream. A dream that seems to be fading into a nightmare, for those unafraid to sleep with their eyes wide shut.

Damn, I can't find my tinfoil. Probably those lizard people again...

[BCPVP]

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Seriously though, some people are too stupid to go to college. This is why I support free vocational training in high school. These programs need to be expanded and more options opened up. My school had a program like this, but if you didn't want to be an auto mechanic or something similar it wasn't for you. I agree with Adam Corolla. There are far too many children in college who are wasting time and money which would better be spent in vocational training, they just haven't figured that out yet.

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While I agree that this is the case for many people, who ultimately needs to make that decision?

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However, I hear these days the outlook for a recent college graduate is pretty slim.

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Grads See Brighter Job Prospects

Job Prospects Look Bright for College Seniors

[Voltorb]

Nice post... refreshing optimism...

I'm really just ranting; I have no idea what I'm talking about or what I'm going to say next.

Sometimes I just get so frustrated for the state of the world. I thought about throwing in something about how very, very few Americans are truly poor, but I figured it would detract from whatever I was trying to say. So I agree with you on that point.

The only point I'd like to argue with you BCPVP, is that not everyone can or should go to college. Some people aren't good at much of anything, or perhaps what they are good at doesn't pay too well. I think its probably time to raise the federal minimum wage again. Unskilled workers should make more; their wealthy employers owe it to them.

Only time will correct the problems I addressed in the last part of my post. I think you probably sense this as well.

I usually have a real decent attitude. Just seems like the last five years have sapped my will to do much of anything. I wonder why that could be?

P.S. Its hard to remain positive when you continually get drawn out on. Sometimes you do everything right, but a higher power feels like stomping you. Then you realize you were doomed from the start. You were placed in a situation that you could not win. Nothing can change that fact. It was over before it started. Doom and gloom... doom and gloom... doom and gloom...

[thatpfunk]

Thanks for the kind words BC.

My story was merely to serve as an example to show that there are people in the world held down by situations out of their control. Unfortunate situations happen everyday, if it costs me a couple of %% higher on my taxes, it is something I do not mind.

[wacki]

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I'm at a good college because I had opportunities to go to good schools, and because my parents had the money to send me to college. I worked hard, sure, but if I had been born very poor and African-American I likely would not have had the same opportunities.

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That is a load of bull. I was an impoverished student and I got grants/ra'ships/ta'ships/etc to pay my way through. I took care of my own bills. My brother used ROTC and scholarships to pay his way through Notre Dame. Every single member of my family took care of themselves all the way through college. African-American's and women have way more opportunities to rise from rags to riches than a white male in the same situation.

Being from the upper middle class simply makes waayyyy easier to stay at the top. The problem is you didn't have to work your tail off so you are more likely to lose it.

[BCPVP]

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The only point I'd like to argue with you BCPVP, is that not everyone can or should go to college. Some people aren't good at much of anything, or perhaps what they are good at doesn't pay too well. I think its probably time to raise the federal minimum wage again. Unskilled workers should make more; their wealthy employers owe it to them.

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I'm not going to argue with that first sentence. True, not everyone needs to or should go to college in order to become successful.

But having seen some reports about the minimum wage, I don't feel that raising it by a dollar (what most people want it to be) is going to help those who need it and may wind up hurting others. I was discussing this issue with Dead in another thread, but I'll give one quick quote from a Heritage Foundation (conservative think tank, but pretty well respected) paper. A few quick quotes:

"A survey published in the Winter 2005 Journal of Economic Perspectives, an academic publication, reports that 71 percent of economists at America’s top universities agree with the statement “a minimum wage increases unemployment among the young and unskilled.” About one-third of the economists agree outright, and another third agree with reservations. "

"The notion that increasing the federal minimum wage will push up real wages is also fiction. Average pay in America has been increasing steadily in recent years, despite the fact that the minimum wage has not changed since 1997. Real wages rise when productivity rises. Labor productivity has gained 26 percent since 1997, and real earnings for non-supervisory workers are up 7 percent. Non-wage benefits are up as well, especially returns to risk-taking entrepreneurs. The credit for these gains goes entirely to the workforce and American business, not to micromanagement from Washington, D.C."
Minimzing Economic Opportunity By Raising the Minimum Wage
The Heritage Foundation has published many papers on the minimum wage, and I would recommend reading them as well. To get you started:
=http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed072204b.cfm]A Minimum-Wage Hike Wouldn't Add Up
=http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/tst042904a.cfm]The Economic Effects of the Minimum Wage
And you can check out the AFL-CIO's website for info on the opposite side, which I encourage you to do as well.

P.S. Sounds like someone is on tilt. I would ask you how you identify tilt within yourself and how you try to correct it. The answer might be helpful in looking at improving one's position in real life.