More on tipping (story from tonight). Don't be like this guy.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
$1 is totally insulting after handing a guy $780.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not defending the guy, but the above statement is kind of messed. I've won pots much larger than $800 and only tipped $1, and I think any dealer would be way, way, way out of line for acting insulted or gypped by the dollar amount of my tip.

Also, if tips were outlawed and the drop and your hourly wage increased instead, what do you think dealers should be paid per hour? Your post seems to indicate the number should be a significant amount over $20/hr.

GoT

[Swampy]

What someone's alternative is doesn't mean squat, Randy. Knowing how to deal and run a game has no more to do with education in economics than it does with flipping burgers. If I were paying dealers in a "no tipping" setting, I'd pay more to the ones who demonstrate a higher level of skill as dealers. The actual rate, however, would be set by the market -- card rooms that go on the cheap would attract the less-skilled dealers.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

UNfortunately, ESPN and the WPT don't seem to make much of a big deal over tipping. In fact, of the episodes I have watched, I haven't ever seen it mentioned once. Maybe I am behind on the times, and they have started to show it since I last watched, but I doubt it. If they would make a big deal about it, these internet and TV trained idiots would friggin' tip already. Instead, they make a big deal over phil hell-mouth being a jerk, so everyone wants to act like him instead. Boo-hiss.

al

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
5%-10% toke on a win at a tourney is what I consider a good to generous toke

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I'm a little bit surprised nobody has commented on this statement. I was suffering from the delusion that 2%-3% was considered a decent tip from turnament top placers. Reading "Positivily 5th Street" for instance, that's what Binion's tells McManus to tip of his $247,760 5th-place winning in the 2000 WSOP main event. Is anybody here upset he didn't tip $24,000? He actually tipped $7,800 and almost knocked the shoes of the staff ... one thing is what you tell the customer to tip, another what you expect.

The burden of tipping in tournaments must necessarily lie upon the shoulders of the top finishers, with the principle "let the widest shoulders carry the heaviest burden". Fair and reasonable to expect the highest tip percentage from the winner, less from #2 and #3, and little or only symbolical tipping from the rest (of course depending on the number of seats payed).

I've only managed to finish in the money in a live tourney once. A $50 buy-in with around 140 starters, and orchestrating 10-way split (all had within +/- 20% the same number of chips, and blinds were about to increase to 10% of the average chipstack) I tipped $30 or around 4% for my $700 gross. Seeing that the other 9 players tipped more or less that same amount and estimating 20h - 25h of dealer time (we started out on 13 tables) a tip of approximately $12 per dealer seemed perfectly decent for a low buy-in tournament.

I guess the size of the prize pool has the main bearing here. The ideal tip probably shouldn't be based on the size of the win, but on the number of hours dealers has spent dealing this particular tournament (I believe it's referred to as "downs", right?). I fail to see how a tip of $10 - $15 per dealer hour spent on the tourney could be frowned upon by the dealers.

Which adds up to a (percentage-wise) little higher tipping in the low buy-in tournaments, and substantially lower in the high end tournaments.

I see the problem that most players these days get their tournament experience online, where no tipping is needed. Since dealers aren't organized and cardrooms not affiliated, the only organization I can think of who could possibly address this problem would be Tournament Director's Association, who could decide to issue recommendations for 1) how to remind winners to tip and 2)how much to suggest.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
5% to 10% seems to be the acceptable and "normal" rate.

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When a dealer says that, it sounds like someone who works as a waitress telling me that a 20-25% tip is the "normal" rate. I think there are so many more factors here. In my mind, in a small buy-in, the tip may need to be a larger percentage because the dealers do the same work as in a bigger buy-in tournament but the prize pool is smaller. Everything that has been written about major tournaments says that the "normal" tip is much smaller.

Also, many poker rooms do take a cut out of the prize pool for the dealers but don't always make that clear to the players. I played in one $100+$10 tournament that started with 30 people. When they posted the prizes, it added up to $2850. Only after I asked did they say they were holding back 5% for the dealers...

Another question: What do you do if one of the tournament dealers was rude and you did not want to tip him, but you also did not want to diss the other dealers? I played in a tournament last week and one dealer was being a d*ck. He made a mistake (told another player the wrong amount of a raise, saying it was almost double what it actually was). When I corrected him, he got all pissy and wouldn't let it rest. Anyway, I finished two spots from the money, so I didn't have to tip around him -- but has anyone ever tried to tip around a dealer in a tournament situation?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

On one hand, tipping is how these folks make their living, and it's too bad some people are so cheap they don't get it.

On the other hand, casinos are rigged games (poker excluded) that make money hand over fist, so if a dealer has a problem he has to understand that the non-tipper is only part of the issue.

I tip, and I try to tip well, but if I just make the money in a tourney, I'm not giving any part of that up. Top 3% finish is a different story.

I used to work in the restaurant business, but the more time I spend in casinos, the more I see them as places set up to make you feel like you must tip at every opportunity. I am beginning to become anti-tipping, but I'm not quite there yet.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
but the more time I spend in casinos, the more I see them as places set up to make you feel like you must tip at every opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's as bad as places like donut shops, where the high school kids and semi-retarded adults who work ther think it's O.K. to place a tip cup on the counter to bonus them for pouring your coffee and putting your donut in a bag.

And on the few occasions where I throw change in the cup, I almost never hear a "Thank You." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity, if tipping were eliminated from both tourney and ring game play and dealing became a salary-only job, what do you think a fair wage for a dealer would be?

[/ QUOTE ]

great post btw. obviously wagers should differ depending upon the average living expenses of the area, but in general i think that dealers deserve about $15/hr. if the casino were to pay the dealers themselves, i would say that there should be some sort of incentive to deal out as many hands as possible, especially on rake tables. i have nothing against dealers, and i try to tip them fairly generously. when i make money in a tournament i toke 5%. i want them to earn a good living, but from my experiences dealers are plain greedy. they think they deserve $5 tips every time they deal you quads.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
What someone's alternative is doesn't mean squat, Randy

[/ QUOTE ]

What their ALTERNATIVE is means EVERYTHING. If you want someone to work for you you have to pay them more than their next best alternative, that is the driving force behind wages. Dealing poker migth not have anything to do with having college degrees, but degrees are a good indicator. People with advanced degrees do better at ALL jobs becasue a degree is an indicator of problem solving abilities.

Randy Refeld


edit:
[ QUOTE ]
The actual rate, however, would be set by the market -- card rooms that go on the cheap would attract the less-skilled dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you do have a basic understanding of this market analysis. What you are missing is that the dealers with better alternatives are able to command a higher price in the market place.

RR

[threadkiller]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers should never solicit tokes. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed. But maybe the Tournament Director should mention at some point in the tournament that the dealers aren't making any money off of the service charge and that tips would be appreciated. It's different coming from the TD in advance.