Autorate rules debate for PokerTracker Omaha

[L0QTiS]

[ QUOTE ]
...what about the players that have low VPIP, but don't have a high enough WSD? I personally fit into this category at the moment. Would they just be considered unrated or would they have some sort of possible tag?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fit into this category as well. Only a fraction of percent from 67% WSD. I've been experimenting with rating these players with an Eagle (Tight with fair to good WSD stats), as well as a Mouse icon to denote players who have reasonably good VPIP, however they have terrible WSD stats. These (mouse) players seem generally good preflop, but undisciplined postflop.

I probably don’t have enough hands to really make any kind of significant observation, but the highest earners in terms of BB/100 fall within the Slightly Loose with Good WSD stats (averages 5bb/100 for “good” players vs. 7bb/100 for the slightly loose good players). I suspect many of these slightly loose but good players trade higher variance for a higher “potential” win rate. Not sure I can attach any significance to this just yet. I have 25,000 hands for myself and probably another few thousand “observed”.

[ QUOTE ]
I think your VPIP is really high for a good player

[/ QUOTE ]

This weekend I’ll look at dropping this to 22%. When I was experimenting and comparing stats earlier last week, I didn’t see much win/loss change for the higher 20-25% VPIP players so thought to include them as “good” but I certainly see your point. As I said, all this is preliminary and I’m completely open to suggestions.

[Yads]

Yeah I really need to raise my WSD. It's slightly above 60%. I guess it's cause I play so much shorthanded and heads up that I tend to pay off way too much when I have a decent 2 way hand.

[gergery]

Good stuff.

I think the “right” VPIP is table dependent. But in general, I agree the VPIP looks a bit loose for good player. Mine is around 23 or so now, and I feel I’m pushing some marginal hands in spots. I’m also actively searching out the weakest tables, which have loose players, and thus its more correct to be playing looser, so that probably influences the # too.

I don’t see many maniacs, not sure how helpful classification is for them
I think a fish is over 50vpip.

Since this category has half winners and half losers SL-L / Poor WSD (75) 51/49
And my overall database shows ~45% of players as winners that suggests this group is actually slightly better than average.

I also don’t think 60-66 is that bad a WSD, since you often can have pot odds to get to showdown, or river bluff can work 20% of the time and be very profitable, etc. So this is somewhat game dependent. Several of the players I respect and who are winners are around 60-65-70.

What about Went to Showdown? I look at that a lot. Under 35 seems too tight, over 45 is too loose.

I’m still trying to figure out how best to use data in O8

[L0QTiS]

[ QUOTE ]

I don’t see many maniacs, not sure how helpful classification is for them


[/ QUOTE ]

I run into plenty of Maniac preflop auto-raisers at the lower limits. I find it very worthwhile to have them identified.

[ QUOTE ]

I think a fish is over 50vpip.



[/ QUOTE ]

Noted.

[ QUOTE ]

I also don’t think 60-66 is that bad a WSD


[/ QUOTE ]

I have actually already revised my descriptor to “Fair”. Are you suggesting to perhaps widen the lower end WSD range of the “good” player?

[ QUOTE ]


What about Went to Showdown? I look at that a lot. Under 35 seems too tight, over 45 is too loose.


[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I haven’t given this aspect of the available stats much thought (yet). At this point, I really don’t know how I would incorporate this. I’ll post my complete base rule-set this weekend (or later this week time permitting). I plan on making the following modifications:

2. Fish
VP$IP 60+
W$SD 50-

Revise VP$P to 50+

5. Slightly loose / Fair W$SD stats
VP$IP 26.01-39.99
W$SD 57.01-66.99

Revise VP$P range to 22.01-39.99 (this may be a stretch, this range seems too high so I may need to revisde sl/bad wsd accordingly – thoughts?)

7. Good player
VP$IP 26-
W$SD 67+

Revise VP$P to 22-

Still unsure what to do with VP$P 40-50 – perhaps this falls into the “unsure” area.

[toots]

We need more icon selection.

A properly functioning rating system would rate me with an icon that has a human figure with question marks shooting out of her head and money falling out of her pockets.

Then, I'd believe it was a good rating system.

[L0QTiS]

Sadly, PTRACK staff neglected to include an ATM icon.

Customization would be cool, but I'm just happy enough the've ported this product to the Omaha side.

[gergery]

Hmm, taking a step back and thinking about how I think about these numbers, what I come up with is:

For VPIP, my personal thoughts are:
<18 Rock.
18-25 Typical for decent players
25-40 slightly loose.
40+ Fishie.
This is because I search for loose tables, so the averages are looser. Once someone is over 40VPIP for a sustained period, it doesn’t much change how I play –I’ll come in with some add’l marginal hands vs. them, but still can’t play complete crap. And I want them at my table whether they’re 42 or 80

Went Showdown
<35 Tight. – assume they’ll fold w/o strong hand. Can bluff or raise them if an A2 holding might fold.
35-45 Average
45+ Call stn – assume they’ll call w/ weak hand. So don’t bluff, and feel free to raise a flop bettor and expect them to call

Won @SD
<58 Bad
58-68 Normal
68+ good
I want anyone who is a fish at my table, SL’s are also good. And anyone who is typical/SL if they are also both CallStn & Bad

PFR – This is more useful than I at first thought, but I still don’t see many doing lots of raising at 3-6, and if they are, then they don’t understand the game and it will show up in other #s. It really is only relevant when looking at VPIP also to see what range they’ll raise with. I suppose it might slightly change my standards to play hands that do a bit better vs. few rather than many opponents. But that seems minor. So I wouldn’t use this, but suppose I would put something like.
0-3 passive
3-7 normal
7-10 agr
10+ nutjob
Won High, Won Low, Scoop, -- haven’t looked at these yet, but might be something there.
Won when saw flop, Agression post flop – haven’t looked at these yet, but I think there might be something there that helps differentiate Rocks/NutPeddlers from Good Players. The good ones seem better able to figure out when to a) bluff, b) raise to induce folds or c) raise to get more $ in.

Just some add’l ramblings. Again I’m not yet sure how to implement.
--Greg

[AnyAce]

I only have 6,000 hands in my database so I don't have anything to add on the classification side. However, I do want to thank LOQTIS and Gergery for their posts in this thread. I have found them to be very useful in giving me a sense of who's actually good and who's just hitting flops right now (and also that I need to tighten up even more! My VPIP down to 30 now and am working to push it lower. I agree with Gergery that there are some tables with 6 or 7 people seeing the flop so that it pays to limp with marginal hands and if the flop doesnt hit perfectly then easy fold).

Thanks again.
AnyAce

[L0QTiS]

Hi all,

Here's the modified rule-set. I changed quite a few things and attempted to standardize the ranges:

VP$IP:
Good: 22-
Sl Loose: 22.01 - 39.99
Loose: 40+

W$SD:
Good: 65+
Fair: 57.01 - 64.01
Bad: 57-

Other notes:
Rock W$SD dropped to 75+ (from 80)
Rating begins at 30 Hands


1. Maniac (Taz Icon)
VP$IP 60+
PFR 15+

2. Fishy (Fish Icon)
VP$IP 40+
W$SD 57-

3. Rock (Rock)
VP$IP 15-
W$SD 75+

4. Slightly loose / Bad W$SD stats (Green Frowny)
VP$IP 22.01-39.99
W$SD 57-

5. Slightly loose / Fair W$SD stats (Yellow Triangle with !)
VP$IP 22.01-39.99
W$SD 57.01-64.99

6. Slightly loose / Good W$SD stats (Yellow Smiley)
VP$IP 22.01-39.99
W$SD 65+

7. Good player (Money Bags Icon)
VP$IP 26-
W$SD 65+

8. Tight / Bad W$SD (Mouse Icon)
VP$IP 22-
W$SD 57-

9. Tight / Fair W$SD (Eagle Icon)
VP$IP 22-
W$SD 57.01-64.99

10. Loose / Good W$SD (Question mark ?)
VP$IP 40+
W$SD 65+

11. Loose / Fair W$SD (Elephant Icon)
VP$IP 40+
W$SD 57.01-64.99

+++

I'll let you folks run your own stats, but I was shocked to find the Loose/Good WSD players were
the highest earners in my database, however as soon as I qualified these players to 200 hands min,
it dropped to near even. Keep this in mind when comparing stats. Sustainability is everything.

I have not attempted to work much else into this rating system as I just wanted to get something
started here. This ruleset will rate any player with 30+ hands.

Anyway, here's the actual ruleset. Save as a text file at Begin/End and import into PTO

+++

Autorate Rules Begin
Aggression:Y
ARI_5 1 S Loose / Bad W$SD
1 5 22.01 39.99 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 22.01 and 39.99
4 4 57.00 Won $ At Showdown % is less than or equal to 57.00
ARI_4 2 S Loose / Good W$SD
1 5 22.01 39.99 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 22.01 and 39.99
4 2 65.00 Won $ At Showdown % is greater than or equal to 65.00
ARI_6 3 S Loose / Fair W$SD
1 5 22.01 39.99 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is between 22.01 and 39.99
4 5 57.01 64.99 Won $ At Showdown % is between 57.01 and 64.99
ARI_10 4 Maniac
1 2 60.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than or equal to 60.00
2 2 15.00 Pre-flop Raise % is greater than or equal to 15.00
ARI_2 5 Fishy
1 2 40.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than or equal to 40.00
4 4 57.00 Won $ At Showdown % is less than or equal to 57.00
ARI_9 6 Rock
1 4 15.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than or equal to 15.00
4 2 75.00 Won $ At Showdown % is greater than or equal to 75.00
ARI_3 0 Good Player
1 4 22.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than or equal to 22.00
4 2 65.00 Won $ At Showdown % is greater than or equal to 65.00
ARI_11 0 Loose / Good W$SD
1 2 40.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than or equal to 40.00
4 2 65.00 Won $ At Showdown % is greater than or equal to 65.00
ARI_13 0 Tight / Bad W$SD
1 4 22.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than or equal to 22.00
4 4 57.00 Won $ At Showdown % is less than or equal to 57.00
ARI_14 0 Loose / Fair W$SD
1 2 40.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is greater than or equal to 40.00
4 5 57.01 64.99 Won $ At Showdown % is between 57.01 and 64.99
ARI_15 0 Tight / Fair W$SD
1 4 22.00 Vol. Put Money In Pot % is less than or equal to 22.00
4 5 57.01 64.99 Won $ At Showdown % is between 57.01 and 64.99
Autorate Rules End

[GooperMC]

I just found this post so I am going to add my $20/1000.

I have been data mining O8 for a little while and over 25K logged hands the only good indicators of how successful a player are W$SF and W$SD. It also looks like W$SF is more important then W$SD. Futhermore it looks like agression isn't vital but it does help.

Here is a summary of my data mining so far:
http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~sjaspan/...itO8Hands.html