John Feeney's AQ test on Party

[URMeowed]

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I hate cats.


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In general or in your game? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Meow.

[amulet]

with all due respect, that is bad poker. let's say a good player raises, what hands can he have? AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT, we can skip 99 and AJs for this. He can also have AK, or AQ. there are 30 possible big pairs and 32 AK, AQ, before your AQ. if he has AA, KK, QQ, you are more then a 4 to 1 dog, if he has AK you are a big dog, you are not really 50/50 vs JJ and TT because your not going to the river with nothing, you hit the flop 1/3 of the time, usually pay to see the turn if you miss. overall if you look at the math you a huge dog, or do you think a good player raises with additional hands?

[skp]

There are lots of winning players who just about always openraise UTG. And they do it with hands like 88 and even QJs that may be too good to fold but not right to just limp in with given game conditions. So, they raise.

I think that's what the other guy meant: Yes, UTG is a winning player but he raises with a lot of hands. Ergo, 3 betting him with AQ even though he is a good player makes sense.

[GreywolfNYC]

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There are lots of winning players who just about always openraise UTG. And they do it with hands like 88 and even QJs that may be too good to fold but not right to just limp in with given game conditions. So, they raise.

I think that's what the other guy meant: Yes, UTG is a winning player but he raises with a lot of hands. Ergo, 3 betting him with AQ even though he is a good player makes sense.

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I doubt that anyone who makes a habit of playing 88 or QJs UTG is a winning player. Not saying that it isn't common in online games, just that these people can't be long-term winners.

[bxpeter]

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There are lots of winning players who just about always openraise UTG. And they do it with hands like 88 and even QJs that may be too good to fold but not right to just limp in with given game conditions. So, they raise.

I think that's what the other guy meant: Yes, UTG is a winning player but he raises with a lot of hands. Ergo, 3 betting him with AQ even though he is a good player makes sense.

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Thats what I meant pretty much. I wouldn't go as far as to add QJs in there, but to me, a good player in the party 15/30 will raise with a lot more than just AK, AA-TT. AJ, QK, and 99 will definitely be in there, many will raise KJs and ATs and maybe 88. I guess its hard to answer the question correctly, because there are good players that do raise a lot more hands and good players that don't.

So I guess I'll go with what others said, 3-bet unless I have reason not to - very tight, low pfr data.

[bobbyi]

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I doubt that anyone who makes a habit of playing 88 or QJs UTG is a winning player. Not saying that it isn't common in online games, just that these people can't be long-term winners.

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Here's a post where bicyclekick says he routinely plays QJs UTG in thisgame and he is (supposedly) a long-term winner:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;o=&vc=1

[skp]

Well, I never fold 88 and I usually openraise with it UTG on Party (I just about always limped when I played live as I used to play in a notoriously loose game).

I usually openraise UTG with QJs. Sometimes, I limp. Rarely do I fold.

And I am a winning player albeit I haven't been there "long term".

Because the thing is that even if playing 88 and QJs UTG (or anywhere in EP) are wrong, that type of error simply can't turn a winning player into a losing player given how infrequently the situation occurs and given how small the error would be even if one were to accept that it was an error. Heck, you could even pick a couple of specific hands like 53s or A4s and raise with it everytime in EP and it wouldn't be that big a mistake.

There would be a problem if these UTG raises were made regularly with 53s and their ilk. But 88 and QJs? C'mon, these hands do just fine IMO. I would be surprised if they were money losers and shocked if the loss was more than trifling.

Perhaps, someone has some pokertracker data on how they have done with these hands UTG.

[AceHigh]

I would probably fold against an unkown.

Against a know I would 3-bet against opponents with pfr of 9% or more fold against opponents with 6% or less.

[SinCityGuy]

Unknown player raises UTG. I have AQo.

There's a very good chance that I'm either in a coinflip situation or a big underdog.

I fold and move on to the next hand.

[astroglide]

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I doubt that anyone who makes a habit of playing 88 or QJs UTG is a winning player. Not saying that it isn't common in online games, just that these people can't be long-term winners.

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hi. long-time winner here. i play 88 and QJs utg every time.