never been so sure of winning a hand- only to lose it - Page 3

Profit · #21 01-25-2005, 01:05 PM

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Ok, you seem to be convinced that you played this hand "correctly".
So, your read was wrong and you lost. Why did you post this hand here?
Perhaps you should have just posted it in the bad beat forum.

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not the case at all, i was simply justifying how i played it (right or wrong), not entirely sure i played it correctly at all.

I asked if ppl would push on the flop with an ace on the board and people said yes. I was trying to determine if that was simply based on the results of this hand (ie he didnt have the ace). If i were to do it over again i probably would have pushed the turn, however i dont think i could have pushed the flop.

I posted it here because i thought it was a rather unusual hand. I played almost 100 sng's last week and this hand stuck out in my mind, not because of a "bad beat" but because the way the hand was played.

Insty · #22 01-25-2005, 01:25 PM

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I asked if ppl would push on the flop with an ace on the board and people said yes. I was trying to determine if that was simply based on the results of this hand (ie he didnt have the ace). If i were to do it over again i probably would have pushed the turn, however i dont think i could have pushed the flop.

I posted it here because i thought it was a rather unusual hand. I played almost 100 sng's last week and this hand stuck out in my mind, not because of a "bad beat" but because the way the hand was played.

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I would have pushed preflop, based on the 10bb "rule". And been glad to either get the 100 or be called by a dominated hand. This is not at all a waste of QQ. Trying to be tricky will (and did) just get you into trouble. Would you rather be up 100 or down all your chips?

Since you didn't push preflop that must mean you might want to lay the hand down at some stage.
What is that stage? If you are afraid of the Ace, you have to fold on the flop. If you are not going to fold, then push and make HIM afraid of your "Aces". You did represent a big hand preflop afterall.
There is 600 in the pot and you have 595 left. You don't want to be giving anyone the odds to draw. and he wont be laying down his hand if you are just calling his bets.

Would you have played this differently if it was the 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] rather than the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

Profit · #23 01-25-2005, 01:46 PM

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Would you have played this differently if it was the 3 rather than the A?

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I would have pushed on the flop with no overcards.

Would you have pushed on the flop if the queen hit the flop and not the turn?

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Would you rather be up 100 or down all your chips?

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Obviously i would rather be up 100. But would you rather be up 100 or up 900? Personally vs the other chips stacks and 5 handed, i think i take the risk to double up or go bust with QQ than take the safer +100 chips.

Also, if i think i played this different as i was against the SB. If it was a one of the other 3 players who limped or raised, i am all in preflop. Should the fact that it was the SB that completed effect my play here?

Delphin · #24 01-25-2005, 04:08 PM

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Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t300, SB calls t200.

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It is dangerous to see a flop with QQ. What will you do if an A or K flops (happens 1/3 of the time, I think)? If you push here and he folds, you have won his 100 and gotten your 100 back. I'm not so sure that's a waste of QQ. If he calls, you will likely be a favorite to double up. I'd push, but the reraise does build the pot, and if no A or K flops, you might have earned an extra 200 with this play.

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Flop: (t600) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t125, Hero calls t125.

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Uh oh. This was one of the flops you didn't want. You're lucky he only bet 125 here. Would you have called if he pushed? This bet is suspiciously small. Is he bluffing, semibluffing on a draw, or is he hoping you'll come over the top? I'd put him on a monster AA,77,99,A9,A7 or a flush draw Axs KQs-K9s QJs-Q9s JTs-J9s T9s. It's hard to raise here for information because you don't have the stack to get away. You could push and hope he is bluffing or semibluffing which is probably more likely, but you're risking all your chips when you could be way behind.

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Turn: (t850) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t275, SB calls t175.

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The Q has just saved you from the nightmare of the A-high flop. You absolutely must push here. You have only 470 chips left, but that is more than half the pot, and is more than triple the flop bet so it still has the chance to win you the 850 chips in the pot right now. He will have to suspect you are slowplaying AA or that you have AQ or QQ. His pot odds are 2.8:1 to call this bet, which means that a straight draw or flush draw is wrong to call you with only one more card to come. Saving 200 chips for the river accomplishes nothing unless you plan to fold when he puts you all in (which he would be correct to do with nothing if he thought there was even 1 chance in 7 you would fold).

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River: (t1400) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t250, Hero calls t195 (All-In).
SB has Td Js (straight, queen high).

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His hand is a surprise only because there were no obvious straight draws on the flop. He probably only bet the flop hoping he could take it down right there. When the Q turned he had an OESD and you didn't give him the wrong odds to call with it. Given that a flush draw was equally likely and has roughly the same odds, not being able to read him for that particular draw doesn't change the fact that you didn't push the turn like you should have.

I think the best choice in this particular hand would be to push preflop. If you don't, the turn is a much more obvious push than the flop, but you have to bet large enough to get some fold equity with your chips at some point in the hand, or any draw is getting the correct odds to river their hand here.

Strollen · #25 01-25-2005, 05:41 PM

Question to those more experienced.
Pushing the turn seems obvious for the reasons given here.

However, some people are advocating pushing on the flop.
Maybe I am missing something but there is a Ace there and the villain did bet out the flop, albeit a small bet.

If you push how many aces are going to fold. AK,AQ, AJ I doubt it, A9, A7? no aces up. Ax of spades not with the nuts flush draw. So that leaves A2,3,4,5,6,8 and maybe A10 who depending on the player may fold to your push. So roughly 1/2 the hands that can beat you will fold, and 95% of the hands you are beating will fold. So what am I missing.

Insty · #26 01-26-2005, 09:50 AM

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Question to those more experienced.
Pushing the turn seems obvious for the reasons given here.

However, some people are advocating pushing on the flop.
Maybe I am missing something but there is a Ace there and the villain did bet out the flop, albeit a small bet.

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On the flop, you are either staying on the hand or getting out.
Here, the hero decided he was staying in the hand despite the ace. Given this, he should put all his chips in at that point rather than dribbling them in gradually and giving the villan the odds to draw on him. I would have pushed preflop and thus never had to make the flop decision.

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If you push how many aces are going to fold. AK,AQ, AJ I doubt it, A9, A7? no aces up. Ax of spades not with the nuts flush draw. So that leaves A2,3,4,5,6,8 and maybe A10 who depending on the player may fold to your push. So roughly 1/2 the hands that can beat you will fold, and 95% of the hands you are beating will fold. So what am I missing.

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Thats a pretty good outcome if 1/2 the hands that can beat you are folding! The thing you are missing is that the Hero doesn't believe his opponent has an Ace and is going to be putting all his chips in anyway. There is already a decent sized pot there to win. So win it now.

Insty · #27 01-26-2005, 09:50 AM

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Also, if i think i played this different as i was against the SB. If it was a one of the other 3 players who limped or raised, i am all in preflop. Should the fact that it was the SB that completed effect my play here?

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I don't think so. Why did it make a difference?