Preflop Bot

[Pawtucket Pat]

Gusly, the thing is, you don't want the fish to understand that tightening up pre-flop is a good thing. A bot designed for that at least suggests that its profitable. I want those idiots playing 27s until the day they die "because its sooted." You are right about the button pushing though, that little thrill of theirs pays my rent every month. Thats a good point, comforting as well. I drive a stick and 4-table on my 1600x1200 LCD, simply because they both make their each respective activity. The manual makes driving more fun, and the monitor makes poker more profitable. While automation wouldn't be much fun for the fish, I still don't anything that disturbs the balance in their world by changing the way they play.

[lorinda]

you don't want the fish to understand that tightening up pre-flop is a good thing.

Most fish understand this. They don't care.

Lori

[tripdad]

a lot of responses are leaning toward "protect my bankroll. do not release this gold mine to the fish i prey upon!".

this is absurd. fish are fish because they know no other way. they are interested in winning lots of pots, apparently with no regard to the many they lose. if a "fish" was interested in improving their game, it wouldn't matter if they got their hands on this program, or simply a good book...they would improve somehow, someway.

i used to be the one who played any Ace, any position(sometimes any face), any 2 suited, etc...i actually fared pretty well in my first Vegas Hold'em sessions playing this type of thing. i really thought i was the bomb. then, while waiting for the plane for the trip home, i scanned through a poker book(can't remember which one, but it was really rudimentary and basic). i bought the book, and read it on the plane trip back. i was kicking myself for not buying one before going to Binion's and playing with the big boys at the $2/4 table...oh, the money that had slipped through my fingers! well, long story short, i was determined to be good at Hold'em, and i had the internet as a resource. i simply took the time to browse different strategy-type sites...yada, yada, yada. i'm a fish NO MORE! (though i can be a bit of a LAG at times [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). and i didn't need a bot to do it!

cheers!

[BradleyT]

I have extensive experience with bots and MMORPGs. I bought a Sims Online bot for $100. It could make money in game about 60x faster than a human could and would run non-stop for 12+ hours on end. I used it to make over $25,000 real cash. The bot creator sold 50 copies and made $5,000 and spent the whole time modifying, tweaking, and adjusting the software over many months. Those of us who owned it created such a huge influx of money in the game we basically collapsed the economy (regular players were delighted to make $20,000 simoleans in a day - we were making $10,000,000) which resulted in the value of money we had dropping 10 fold (what we could sell for $40 two months ago was now selling for $4). Eventually word got out and all of us got banned from the game (they started checking how fast players were making money and then looking at what programs we had running). At the time I was banned I had over $4,000 worth of simoleans on my characters. If he'd kept it to himself he probably could have made $200,000+.

Right now I have my own crafting bot for Everquest II. While it's not as nice as the Sims Online bot I bought, it's undetectable because no one has any copies and Sony would have no clue what .exe file or windows process to scan for on my computer. Sure I could sell it for $50 and probably make $5000 (minus all the hours spent helping and supporting moron users) before we all get caught or the economy collapses - or I can keep it to myself and make $25,000.

Like I said, keep it. Game economies are like the fish ponds. One single person can't dry up the pond, but multiple people can.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
a lot of responses are leaning toward "protect my bankroll. do not release this gold mine to the fish i prey upon!".

this is absurd. fish are fish because they know no other way. they are interested in winning lots of pots, apparently with no regard to the many they lose. if a "fish" was interested in improving their game, it wouldn't matter if they got their hands on this program, or simply a good book...they would improve somehow, someway.

i used to be the one who played any Ace, any position(sometimes any face), any 2 suited, etc...i actually fared pretty well in my first Vegas Hold'em sessions playing this type of thing. i really thought i was the bomb. then, while waiting for the plane for the trip home, i scanned through a poker book(can't remember which one, but it was really rudimentary and basic). i bought the book, and read it on the plane trip back. i was kicking myself for not buying one before going to Binion's and playing with the big boys at the $2/4 table...oh, the money that had slipped through my fingers! well, long story short, i was determined to be good at Hold'em, and i had the internet as a resource. i simply took the time to browse different strategy-type sites...yada, yada, yada. i'm a fish NO MORE! (though i can be a bit of a LAG at times [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). and i didn't need a bot to do it!

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the mediocre players getting a hold of this that worries me. The more people that cross the line from losing a small amount/breaking even to winning players means the faster the fish money dries up.

[mcozzy1]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as it being "ethical", I think it clearly is

[/ QUOTE ]

It clearly is not. Using a bot is against most sites' user agreements. It clearly is cheating. Whether you want to do it or not is up to you.

[Subby]

I actually think you are on to something here if you re-engineer it to NOT push buttons for you.

Just for arguments sake, let's say you have a program that is based on Hilger's starting hands charts for low limit hold 'em. The program monitors all of your games in one separate window. The program tells you your hand, position, action up to that point, makes a recomendation for action, and has a button for each of the three decisions you can make. This wouldn't be a bot according to Party's terms, but would instead be an automation of the recommended starting hands charts - an improvement because you don't have to look away from your screen and find that information on the handmade chart you crafted.

Anyway, if you take the "bot" out of the equation, I think you are headed in the right direction. As long as you are pushing the buttons, you are still a human making a decision based on the best information possible.

[AncientPC]

It is unethical because it violates the Party TOS.

If you want to use it, fine but don't spread it for reasons already stated above.

[gusly]

[ QUOTE ]
It is unethical because it violates the Party TOS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're going a bit too far with your definition of unethical. Without getting into too much of a philosophical discussion, I'll just say that ethics and legality are separate and distinct. The illegal act can most certainly be the ethical act. Put plainly, doing the right thing can involve breaking the law...

So... is the preflop bot unethical? Maybe, depending on your point of view, but not because of Party's TOS. Not to mention that the TOS are written so vaguely that Pokertracker can be interpreted to be against their TOS. People were worried about it and emailed them to make sure PT was okay, and Party said yes it is, but they could easily change their minds tomorrow.

[YoureToast]

BradleyT and everyone else here, I really appreciate your responses. It seems that most of the fear here is the widespread distribution of it -- and that is a concern I have. A few things I am thinking about are these:

What if I only distributed it to 2+2ers....or those that could verify that they've read about my product on 2+2. This would likely prevent it from getting in the hands of idiots, or, frankly, average players (who I think it would help the most).

I could distribute it with very loose rules or no rules at all.

I could distribute it only to people I could verify (using PT or something) are tight players (this would be problematic b/c then the buyer would have to give me their userID and I'm not sure they'd want to do that.

Finally and this is my favorite but least practical, I could limit it to 3/6 games or lower. Since I tend to play 15/30 mostly (and since this product would be least valuable in those games) and some 10/20 and 5/T, this would alleviate some of "my" concern, but not the concerns of those that play 3/6 and below.

Somebody mentioned that they didn't believe I'd limit its distribution; while I agree that it would be tempting to sell out if the profits were great, I think a subscription based licensing arrangement could help me increase yearly profits, while at the same time not doing damage to the industry. 200 or even more players having this product, people who learned abou it on this forum, for example, would hardly put a dent in the "fishyness" of Party.

Again, I am not at all saying I'm going to do this (my wife is having our second baby tomorrow so I will be quite busy for a while anyway); I will tell you, however, that if I do, you will be the first to know and the first to have an opportunity to try it. I am so grateful for all the responses.

YoureToast