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#22
12-21-2004, 11:53 AM
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Re: you can never be too careful
[ QUOTE ]
At the Foxwoods 20-40, you are being too careful. They'll call you with much worse. [/ QUOTE ] This is very true of the traditional Foxwoods crowd ... something I wish I was a part of for the last few days, but I've been unfortunately riddled with the flu. Barron Vangor Toth www.BarronVangorToth.com 
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#23
12-21-2004, 01:04 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
Why not bet the river?
When it looks like you'll both be playing the board, just about any hand will call. The case 6 is more unlikely than the case king since the button cold called a PF raise. If you're raised, then call expecting to chop. I think there's just too much risk of a check-behind not to bet out with a 95% chance of the best or tied for best hand. If this post was about meta-game stuff, then tell us if you got some free showdowns later in the session.
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#24
12-21-2004, 01:19 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
When you look at a line of play, there are many things to consider. But the most important and overriding consideration is how to make the most money at the table.
Sometimes that's measured in terms of losing the least when we're behind in a hand, sometimes its that thin value bet on the river. And learning how to make the most money is the reason we all post on this forum. And yes, sometimes playing a specific hand in a suboptimal way has metagame implications that actually help us make more money in the rest of the session. But not finding a raise with top full is simply a mistake at the most fundamental level. It can't be explained or justified away. You can make an argument for playing every street up to the river the way Tommy did, but you can't justify his river play. If Tommy really confident his opponent would bet the river, then check-raising the river is fine. If not he should have bet out. And once he checks and his opponent bets, he absolutely HAS to check-raise there. -Scott
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#25
12-21-2004, 01:28 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
[ QUOTE ]
"What I want to know is what Tommy would do if a blank came on the turn...check/call again?" If the turn and river had both been blanks, I would have checkcalled both streets. I did not have any particular read on the button player, in general, or on this hand, except that he was betting and the board was K-6-6, so I played him for a king or a six. Tommy [/ QUOTE ] This makes sense up until the river. And very possibly I'd have played those streets the same. But please, why did you play the river the way you did? -Scott
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#26
12-21-2004, 01:34 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
If this post was about meta-game stuff, then tell us if you got some free showdowns later in the session.
This is just silly. Yes you can possibly say that the initial CHECK on the river may have earned him some free showdowns, but after he checks and his opponent bets the check-raise on the river is mandatory. And if you think about it, check-raising the river will earn him MORE free rivers than check-calling. Whats scarier, your opponent check-calling you on the river, or him check-raising you on the river? If you're looking for free showdowns, check-raise. Then when you check next time, your opponent(s) will remember the river check-raise and be more afraid to value bet the river against you unless you're really beat. -Scott
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#28
12-21-2004, 03:14 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
[ QUOTE ]
And once he checks and his opponent bets, he absolutely HAS to check-raise there. [/ QUOTE ] Who calls that he doesn't split with? Nobody has AA in this pot... I thought it was SOP to let a bluffer keep bluffing, and raising a person that you think is bluffing is just poor strategy. It appears that Tommy believes this person is either bluffing or has quads or has the other K. If the guy is bluffing betting out is certainly wrong, as he'll just fold and a bluffer won't call a c/r, the most you get is one bet. If the guy has quads betting out gets you raised (as it would by the other K) and you stand to loose 2 bets. If you c/r the guy with quads you get 3 bet, and have to call and loose 3 bets. If the guy has the other K you get raised when you bet and gain nothing, and the other K is not going to fold to a c/r. Not only does this line not need to be "explained or justified away", it is the only way to maximize the river. The only possible argument for a river c/r is if you are SURE the other guy is betting a bluff, and you just don't want to show. lf
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#29
12-21-2004, 03:30 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
Barry and sublime will attest; you haven't played at Foxwoods enough.
foxwoods rules! the softest 10 and 20 games i have ever seen. not that i have seen many, but from what little exposure i have had to vegas and ac.
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#30
12-21-2004, 03:31 PM
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Re: you can never be too careful
[ QUOTE ]
Who calls that he doesn't split with? Nobody has AA in this pot... [/ QUOTE ] A lot of people call the check raise, hoping to split. I'm guessing a check raise gets called by a hand he beats more often than he gets reraised by a 6.
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