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#21
11-08-2004, 11:35 PM
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Re: Insert Catchy Title Here
Hey BK,
[ QUOTE ] the only part i somewhat doubt is your decision to start off the hand by checking it. if i chose to check, i would be planning to check raise. when that flop comes, you have no reason to not believe that the preflop raiser will not raise if you bet, with high pockets and the ace [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. given that you check/called the flop, your line is definently defendable. [/ QUOTE ] The stack sizes dictated my decision to check rather than lead out. Plan A was to get the money in on the flop against the PFR. If I lead, he raises, then I move all-in, giving him a chance to maybe fold an overpair with no heart or something like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. But, by letting him get in the first bet, my check-raise is such that the NEXT raise gets all the money in, and my opponent is the one who gets to make that raise. Thus, he might raise all-in with the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or an overpair with no heart. Plus, checking gave me the option to play the hand the way I ended up playing it. Generally, I like leading into the preflop raiser, and with different stack sizes (or a two-tone or rainbow flop), I would lead into the raiser here. But, I think the check works best for the specific situation. Thanks for the post. ML4L 
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#22
11-09-2004, 03:42 AM
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Re: Insert Catchy Title Here
I feel pretty confident he doesn't have a flush nor does he have a missed flush. He betting feels to me like he's trying to charge you for drawing. By the river he's concluded that you don't have the flush and you missed the 4th heart you've been looking for.
What does he have? I'm worried that he's got an over set like JJ or QQ (50%). I'm hoping he's got AQ or an overpair with one heart (25%). Otherwise I was just dead wrong about him not having the flush. I would have preferred to raise on the flop to get more information.
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#23
11-09-2004, 02:00 PM
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Re: Results and Thought Process
good post. one thing though when you say on the turn your mind was already made up about your plan. it might be prudent to reevaluate there and do some quick math. if he has you beat you get it all in whether you checkraise the river or call his all in so those hands don't matter. if he has a heart draw then it wouldn't be too hard to set up a little equation of how often he needs to bluff the river for you to not want to protect your hand against his draw.
pot is like $750 and a draw comes in 1/5 times so he only needs to bluff the river on average $150 i think for you to try and make him bluff as opposed to protecting the pot. did i miss anything big? rushed this post. well played.
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#24
11-09-2004, 02:01 PM
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Re: Results and Thought Process
i remember when i first started out playing poker i would never have considered a line anything like this. and the advice i got from new players, they would be going crazy about how you aren't raising and protecting your hand on that 3 flush board [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#25
11-09-2004, 02:26 PM
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Re: Results and Thought Process
[ QUOTE ]
if he has you beat you get it all in whether you checkraise the river or call his all in so those hands don't matter. [/ QUOTE ] Another benefit of my line is that, if another heart comes, he might check behind with JJ or 77, giving me a free showdown when he had me drawing near dead. One last thought. If I have 77, this line is nowhere near as good. If I have JJ, it's downright awful. Also, if his range of hands is even slightly different than what I put him on, the line isn't quite as great. But, I didn't have 77 or JJ. And his range of hands is what it is. So, I think I played the hand pretty well... ML4L
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#26
11-09-2004, 03:42 PM
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Re: Results and Thought Process
[ QUOTE ]
One last thought. If I have 77, this line is nowhere near as good. If I have JJ, it's downright awful. [/ QUOTE ] Would anyone care to elaborate on this? mL4L? How much would this really change the strength of your hand? What in your line would change? Thanks.
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#27
11-09-2004, 03:52 PM
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Re: Results and Thought Process
Hey pfunk,
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] One last thought. If I have 77, this line is nowhere near as good. If I have JJ, it's downright awful. [/ QUOTE ] Would anyone care to elaborate on this? mL4L? How much would this really change the strength of your hand? What in your line would change? Thanks. [/ QUOTE ] Briefly, here it goes... The reason that I like this line is that I am either ahead and will be able to release if I get caught or way behind. I have no chance of folding out a better hand and little chance of getting heavy action from a worse hand unless I induce bluffs. I could have check-raised or done something like that at some point, but I would rather do it with two rags than waste my set trying to take down the pot on the flop on account of some ridiculous generality like "I have to charge draws" or "I have to protect my hand." What changes if I have 77 is that now, there is a hand that will give me heavy action on the flop: 44. I want action from the good player because on the flop because I don't want a heart to kill my action or give him a chance to push my better hand out. 44 is a very reasonable holding for him to have, and I don't see any way to get away from it on the flop. The same comments apply to JJ, only now, there are TWO hands that I can double through if I gun it out on the flop. Playing the hand in the manner that I did simply gives up too much equity when I have a hand other than bottom set. Make sense? ML4L
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#28
11-09-2004, 07:28 PM
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Re: Insert Catchy Title Here
I think this is fine and having read your results already think your reasoning was fine. Only thing I disagree w/ is that I think a CR all-in on the turn for $700 more might get called by AhJx and AhQx (and is this the kind of guy who could have AA here) enough of the time to make it worthwhile as opposed to only being called by hands that beat you. Those hands will quite likely check behind on the river unimproved. I haven't thought much about how often he'll have those hands and how often he'll bluff on the river with a complete whiff like AhTx, but I think a turn cr could be worth considering.
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#29
11-10-2004, 02:53 PM
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Re: Insert Catchy Title Here
[ QUOTE ]
A thinking player, or any player for that matter, knows that the stacks arent near deep enough to pull off moves like that, they rarely ever are. [/ QUOTE ] In my original post I stated that I thought he was either on a bare ace bluff or the flopped nut flush. Turns out that it was the bare ace bluff, but no one seemed to give any credit to the fact that this guy could have the goods here. I myself will often lead out with a pot sized bet when i flop the nuts hoping to get action. If i get called on the flop and the turn doesnt change anything, I would lead out again hoping that they would call with their set/two pair or whatever they decided was worth calling a pot sized bet on the flop was. Same with the river. As far as his river bluff goes, I dont think it was all that bad. I personally would have had a tough time calling that river bet, but then again im a p*ssy. It sounded to me like he had the ace of hearts in his hand and the only question was if it was dressed or not.
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