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#22
10-27-2004, 07:12 AM
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For some ideas...
Abdul's page
This can give you an idea for preflop play in this situation rather than just relying on premiums. It's about 1/2 way down. There is likely to be enough action/callers postflop that small PP are good. It's not often that they'll shut down on the flop or play real tight postflop. If they do, they could be folding incorrectly. But that's a rarity. Figure they'll call way too far with their hands. They likely wont put you on a set until it's a little late. By then you're likely almost to your target amount for the breakeven point, if not already there or past it. Make note of where the aggression will likely be coming from postflop to better extract. Also note the tight players when they enter the pot, along with others who may be 'ignoring' the fact that you're now in. Many will only adjust to the maniacs, not the callers. You may also want to get a nice big bottle of maalox or pepto. b 
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#23
10-27-2004, 07:14 AM
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Re: BUMP: Re: If you knew if would be capped
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, this is hardly hypothetical at some Live 3/6 & 4/8 tables I've seen [/ QUOTE ] Once in awhile the live 20-40 where i play will get this way. It's not just a LL texture. b
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#24
10-27-2004, 07:39 AM
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Re: If you knew if would be capped
[ QUOTE ]
Um what in the world are you talking about. [/ QUOTE ] I gave an exercise to help purge you of the weak-tight attitude that makes you think the hands I mentioned are completely unplayable against very loose players. [ QUOTE ] First of all just go to www.twodimes.net and use their simulator. [/ QUOTE ] No, do that second after you realize how bad your opponents' hands are. Two Dimes won't tell you how bad their hands have to be for 5 out of 9 to see the flop. Out of 9 random hands, some 5 are putting in 5 bets. A9o is much more likely to dominate them than to be dominated. Do the exercise I posted, then feed those hands into Two Dimes. I've done it, and the results have supported the idea that a 20% overlay against random hands puts you ahead, on average, against slightly better than average hands. [ QUOTE ] Okay fine their playing crap, but I wouldn't assume the hands are totally random, but that's more of a side point. [/ QUOTE ] I didn't assume they were random. After questioning the original poster, I explicitly assumed that they were slightly better than random. [ QUOTE ] In a LOOSE PASSIVE game you should loosen up considerably and you can play lots of poop hands. But in a LOOSE AGRESSIVE game you need to tighten up considerably. [/ QUOTE ] Nonsense. I've won a lot by recognizing and isolating LAGs with much weaker hands than I usually play. [ QUOTE ] Even though you stated it was loose passive post flop the fact that it's capped preflop still makes most of the hands you listed unplayable and unprofitable. In addition most people muddle up the fact that the hand simulators assume you never fold post flop, which is just not true for limit holdem. [/ QUOTE ] Don't assume I am "most people." Do you understand why you play as tightly as you do in a normal game? Many of those reasons don't apply when several people are capping with garbage. You are applying ideas out of context. With so much money goes in preflop, and your opponents are loose-passive postflop (as stated by the original poster, not made up by me), [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] You should loosen up considerably. [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] You should depend more on the hot-and-cold results rather than implied odds. If you have a coherent argument against these, I'd be happy to see it. Just saying that the hands I said were marginally profitable in this situation are crappy hands does not count.
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#25
10-27-2004, 03:30 PM
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Re: If you knew if would be capped
[ QUOTE ]
I gave an exercise to help purge you of the weak-tight attitude that makes you think the hands I mentioned are completely unplayable against very loose players. [/ QUOTE ] There is a big difference between loose players and loose players in an overaggressive game. [ QUOTE ] Nonsense. I've won a lot by recognizing and isolating LAGs with much weaker hands than I usually play [/ QUOTE ] Evidently you missed the part about it being 5 way to the flop, capped. You're not isolating anyone. Postflop, maybe, but you're still paying too high an initial price coming in to make it worthwhile overall. [ QUOTE ] With so much money goes in preflop, and your opponents are loose-passive postflop (as stated by the original poster, not made up by me), You should loosen up considerably. You should depend more on the hot-and-cold results rather than implied odds. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] KTo, K6s, QTo, Q8s, JTo, J8s, T8s, 98s, [/ QUOTE ] So you're saying with these hands, you're getting the money in when you have the best of it? You're most likely not. Looking at pokerroom.com's stats, every one of these hands has -EV to it no matter the position. A9o is a stretch. It also sucks in a multi way pot. The suited hands here need to see the flop relatively cheap. Why? Because they need implied odds. They most likely will not hold up should you only hit top pair. Do you know how many bets you'd likely have to make up postflop after putting 5 bets in with these hands? Quite a bit. If the game is 'passive' postflop, it's even worse. You're not drawing for cheap, you already paid a heavy price up front in coming on in just to hit your draw. As for the offsuit hands, they suck in multiway ram -n jam games. Flat out. They are garbage in this type of game. [ QUOTE ] Do you understand why you play as tightly as you do in a normal game? Many of those reasons don't apply when several people are capping with garbage. You are applying ideas out of context. [/ QUOTE ] Do you understand that your reasoning is talking about many players seeing the flop for 1, maybe 2 bets, you loosen up a bit. Generally a passive preflop game. Not when it starts getting capped. It really sounds like you're confusing a passive preflop game with many loose players with a loose aggressive preflop game. I know i'm on the right table when i see opponents go in on a capped preflop with these types of hands repeatedly. But hey, if you're killing these games playing this way, more power to ya. I hope it lasts. b
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#26
10-27-2004, 03:51 PM
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Can Theory Break the tie??
I've enjoyed the debate, but would really like to know if there is any theoritcal concepts to apply here. As anyone who reads through the thread will see, there are 2 general camps:
1) Loosen up, play more suited connectors (and gaps?) and B-Way unsuited hands than you normally would 2) Tighten up, play big PPs and premium suited b-way only. These are almost exactly opposite opinions...I'd love to see someone really discuss in the theory context... Thanks Ken
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#27
10-27-2004, 03:59 PM
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Re: Can Theory Break the tie??
Post a link to this thread in small stakes. Maybe even the mid stakes forum. It may give them something different to talk about other than the 'did i play the nut hand right?' posts.
btw...What's 'b-way?' b
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#30
10-28-2004, 12:03 AM
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Re: If you knew if would be capped
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Nonsense. I've won a lot by recognizing and isolating LAGs with much weaker hands than I usually play [/ QUOTE ] Evidently you missed the part about it being 5 way to the flop, capped. You're not isolating anyone. Postflop, maybe, but you're still paying too high an initial price coming in to make it worthwhile overall. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for cutting out the relevant context. Yeknom58 said that you need to tighten up against aggressive, loose players. It was so important to Yeknom68 that he used capital letters. However, this is wrong. As a counterexample, I offered that I loosen up against certain aggressive, loose players and win a lot from it. No one said anything about trying to isolate when 5 people are willing to put in 5 bets preflop with garbage. When people are backing complete garbage for 5 bets, it is correct to put your chips in with above average hands. You don't have to wait for a premium hand. Evidently, I didn't miss the part about this being capped by 5 other players since I have stated it many times, and my other arguments apply directly to this situation. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] KTo, K6s, QTo, Q8s, JTo, J8s, T8s, 98s, [/ QUOTE ] So you're saying with these hands, you're getting the money in when you have the best of it? [/ QUOTE ] Plus A9o, A2s, 66, and anything better. Yes. These are hands that I consider marginally +EV in this situations. You seriously think KQo and AJo are not playable in this situation? Would you care to name a 2+2 author you would accept as a referee, and put some money on whether they think KQo and AJo are profitable in this situation? [ QUOTE ] You're most likely not. Looking at pokerroom.com's stats, every one of these hands has -EV to it no matter the position. [/ QUOTE ] First, you are incorrect. According to the PokerRoom EV page, QTo wins from the button except at $1-$2, where it loses 0.01 BB/hand, and $25-$50, where there are fewer than 50 samples. In 10-handed games, T8s wins from the button, CO, and even UTG+2 at all but one level. Second, the PokerRoom statistics were not collected in games where 6 people put in 5 bets preflop (each hand and 5 opponents). I'm not saying QT does well against the best hand from your 9 opponents. I'm saying it does well when people are playing 5 out of every 9 hands. [ QUOTE ] The suited hands here need to see the flop relatively cheap. Why? Because they need implied odds. [/ QUOTE ] No, these hands don't need implied odds. With no implied odds at all, 98s is a clear favorite against 5 random hands, enough that I think it will be a favorite against slightly better than random hands. 98s simply hits often enough. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you understand why you play as tightly as you do in a normal game? Many of those reasons don't apply when several people are capping with garbage. You are applying ideas out of context. [/ QUOTE ] Do you understand that your reasoning is talking about many players seeing the flop for 1, maybe 2 bets, you loosen up a bit. Generally a passive preflop game. Not when it starts getting capped. It really sounds like you're confusing a passive preflop game with many loose players with a loose aggressive preflop game. [/ QUOTE ] My arguments apply. I'm talking about people putting 5 bets in preflop in with far worse than the hands I listed. If you wait for a premium hand to punish these players, you are leaving too much money on the table. It sounds like you are associating some strength with the fact that the betting was capped preflop. In most games, that would be the case, but not here. The players are capping with hands that are only slightly better than random. I'll post examples shortly.
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