The Freaky Donkey Stylie

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
The 17-1 ignores effective odds, which are pretty high given the preflop action no? The only thing you can compare 17-1 to is the odds of actually flopping a straight, which are essentially infinite for all practical considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly do you mean by this?

If he's getting 17:1 odds for the other guy's stack and the other guy has a big pair for sure, he is making an inherently -EV play. The only question is by how much.

[1800GAMBLER]

Hi.

You are wrong. Preflop is awful. End of Story.

Jay.

[Boris]

If you know the other guy has AA or KK you should call every single time. It is -EV to fold.

[Unarmed]

Sorry if that was misinterpreted, I wasn't saying it was +EV, its clearly quite -EV. I said earlier that you're 5% or so to hit your straight by the river. So you need 20:1 to call bare minimum.

It was then suggested that 17:1 wasn't all that bad, and compared to the 20:1 I threw out it doesn't look horrible. However, the 20:1 assumes your opponent will let you see the turn and river for free, which definitely isn't happening in the vast majority of cases. (PF raise or not)

Does that make more sense?
I don't really have a mid-high stakes posting license yet so my apologies if it doesn't

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
If you know the other guy has AA or KK you should call every single time. It is -EV to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

When's the last time you folded to a re-raise?

[Triumph36]

I don't know who he is but I watched pkrbt and others take his stack consistently this morning while short-handed, and saw him play incredibly loose in a full table situation. Seemed way too LAG at a full table, raising 30% of hands pre-flop.

[Ulysses]

Yeah, this is kind of a silly discussion. My contention is simple. When you take into account all the scenarios in this situation if you play this hand reasonably well post-flop, I don't think that's a money-making call pre-flop. Feel free to disagree, it's not really a big deal.

Look at this hand, though. You get one of the better flops possible for this hand and most of the money goes in as a 2:1 or 3:1 dog. How fun is that?

As for calling re-raises, I'm sure we'll get to play some live NL at some point, Boris. When we do, you'll see that I perhaps play one or two hands besides AA and AKs if the stacks are right.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe I'm getting sucked in to defend Mr. Donkey and his pos 54 and his pos position. I'm not saying he played good poker. I'm not saying he played well after the flop. All I'm saying is that pre flop call was not that bad. I mean which hands in hold'em are a 17:1 dog to pocket rockets? I'm curious what hands you would call with in the same situation? Or do you just fold everything but AA and suited AK?

I'll agree that maybe I over value the benefit of implied odds. As for the reverse implied odds I don't think 54 has reverse implied odds. The reverse implied odds hands imo are pocket pairs 99-AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

KK vs K2o is a 95% favorite preflop.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
haha wild, and your about to understand why. its ben affleck

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll bite. Is this supreme wit, or do you actually have this on some credible source? If so, how do you know?

BTW, he's an animal. I later saw him re-raise to $600 from the SB w/27 of clubs then stack someone when he made his flush on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw that, too. That was one of the few times his image helped him big time.

Another play was when there were 4 clubs or 4 spades down, and he made a big river bet with King high. (After calling a flop raise) His opponent called him w/o a flush. That's where his image hurts him.

[cero_z]

Hi Boris,

[ QUOTE ]
I mean which hands in hold'em are a 17:1 dog to pocket rockets?

[/ QUOTE ]

You misunderstand the concept of implied odds very severely. You can't profitably call someone with a hand that's obviously way behind on the assumption that the few times it comes down right for you, you will always get his whole stack.

Due to the pot already being big enough to want to "win it right now", you will not get a cheap flop. So, you only make money after the flop with this hand when you outflop him. This might be pretty hard to do, when he holds KK. Obviously, you flop a straight draw more often than you immediately outflop KK. I think it's pretty clear that this hand will lose money to any decent player (whether they hold a big pair or some other legitimate re-raising hand).

The one exception is if you not only play much better than your opponent, but if he also plays very badly in general. Clearly, from the other hands posted on this guy, he is among the worst players at the table.