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[helpmeout]

Sorry but raising a marginal hand like KTs with 4 players to come is silly.

For starters it could be dominated already by common limping hands like AT or KQ KJ and even worse one of the 4 players left to act could 3bet with a premium hand leaving you only with a flush draw against a few players.

[Piiop]

I don't see why just calling is such a terrible decision.

It's not a terrible decision, it's not even a bad decision. If I came out sounding that way, I apologize. I was trying to point out why one decision is better than the other.

but we do know that they are less likely to call 2 bets than 1, and that we would love for them to be in the pot against our high speculative hand.


Again, we can't really base our actions on what we think the people behind us might do. However, I want those players to fold. I would much rather have the button and have everyone check to me than the possibility of more players in the pot. So, the hand is already multiway and you do not need to entice more people to enter it.

ultimately you might be thinning the field before your speculative hand has even had an opportunity to see the flop.

True, I want the people behind me to fold, but that's because there are enough players in already. The reason you'd limp with this hand or other hands like QJs or A9s in early position is to encourage more limpers. Raising with these hands would be wrong because it would thin the field which you don't want because your hand does well multiway. And it would leave you with players who are probably holding a better starting hand than you. However, in this case, the 3 players you have in are plenty and the blinds might come along. (I'm not saying that I hope that they come in but that frequently blinds will -correctly- call raises in multiway pots from a LP player more than they would an EP raise in a shorthanded pot.)

but I am curious if it's +EV to "give up" the button position in later bettings rounds in order to get 2-3 extra hands in against a speculative hand like KTs.

I think you're focusing too much on just trying to get as many people in against you as possible when you have a drawing hand. That's important, but remember you will win with this hand with less than a flush or straight.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but raising a marginal hand like KTs with 4 players to come is silly.

For starters it could be dominated already by common limping hands like AT or KQ KJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Not playing this hand for fear of domination is ridiculous. We both know many, many opponents that play low to mid limits frequently limp with hands much worse than KQ/AT/KJ. On average, your hand will be much better than theirs.

[ QUOTE ]
even worse one of the 4 players left to act could 3bet with a premium hand leaving you only with a flush draw against a few players.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess you never play KK because someone could have AA?

[Bukem_]

It's really not that complicated.

You raise preflop when you have the best of it.
KTs is not having the best of it preflop.
Limping on speculative hands that play well multiway is very reasonable.

[Jimbobobb]

KTs is good for many reasons. It plays great multi way, and even though it may not be a 'premium' holding, it *does* have high card value, especially vs. many of the random holdings people at this limit are prepared to call with. Odds are you have the best hand so far.

Basically by raising here you are building a big pot that you plan on winning when your draws hit. But you are also helping yourself reach that goal and giving yourself a few extra 'outs' by asserting your position and establishing control - this allows you to use free card plays and information to help you continue in the hand. Doing these things early can really make or break a hand.

I see too much weak tight thinking here. Three people limping does not mean you're dominated. It means three people liked their hands. It 'probably' means at least one is playing absolute garbage. Two people plus the blinds to act behind you doesn't mean one holds a monster and is going to re-raise you. If we followed this line of thinking, we'd never play anything but AA.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
It's really not that complicated.

You raise preflop when you have the best of it.
KTs is not having the best of it preflop.
Limping on speculative hands that play well multiway is very reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to PokerStove , KTs against 3 limping hands and 2 random hands has almost 30% pot equity. That may not be the "best" of it, but thats a pretty huge edge.

[StellarWind]

The preflop raise is fine:

1. You have an equity edge against preflop limpers. This is a value raise.

2. You may capture the button. The button is worth money.

3. There is a reason why we are discussing KTs and not 52s. They both have the same basic draws, but KTs is a vastly better hand. I love flush draws as much as the next person, but the hard reality of poker is that you are much more likely to be trying to win this hand with a pair of kings or tens. Knocking out opponents when you have high cards is not evil.

One of those "customers" that we knocked out behind us may very well have had a five. How would you feel about that when the turn comes?

The flop raise is good. You have a decent draw that may be the best hand. You should try to protect both your hand and your outs. With K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] instead I would not expect to have the best hand. I would just call to draw cheaply unless I was pretty certain I could buy a free card by raising.

The check on the turn is a serious error. It is quite likely that you have the best hand. The flop did not get reraised. No one stepped forward to bet their trip fives. Between your hand and your outs you will win this much more than 25% of the time. By putting 1 BB in the pot you force three opponents to either match or fold their draws. You are getting 3-1 odds on this bet.

If someone checkraises you can fold. Little harm has been done by betting because you would have lost the same bet calling the river after you checked. You don't have many outs against their likely hands: trips, set, big jack. Only in the rare case where you manage to make a winning hand on the river would checking have saved you.

Usually you will get a mixture of calls and folds. When you fail to improve on the river they will check to you. Now you probably should worry that someone is hugging a jack. You check behind them and take the free showdown. The bet you spent on the turn comes back because you don't have to pay to call the river. You have broken even on the amount of money you invested in the pot, but you have gained major advantages by putting it in on the turn:

1. Someone may fold a hand like Ax or Qx. This could save the hand for you when an overcard hits the river.

2. A straight draw will pay a bet on the turn to see the river. He will pay nothing on the river when he misses. Unlike you, he doesn't need a showdown for his hand. Betting the turn gets an extra BB in the pot that you might win.

To summarize the key ideas behind this turn decision:

1. You may have the best hand. Protect it from weak draws.

2. You want a showdown even if you don't improve. Buy it now while it comes with extra free merchandise.

3. You can easily fold if you get checkraised because you have virtually no outs in that case.

Contrast this hand with K9. Now you should take the free card:

1. You don't have the best hand. You absolutely don't care about anyone's outs because you are drawing to the nuts.

2. You don't want a showdown. You will fold the river when you miss.

3. A checkraise would be horrible because you have four nut outs. You would have to call.

I've spent a lot of virtual ink on this turn because it is fundamental. This situation comes up all the time. Keep reading this over until you get it. Checking is a huge leak.

[Bukem_]

I don't assume he is dominated in this situation. The real trouble is that when you are you are probably gonna lose alot of money.

I think he played it well postflop, which is ultimately far more important than whether he limped or raised with this hand.

[Greg J]

Excellent post stellarwind!

The preflop raise is fine. The fact is this is a fairly close decision preflop, but I think raising here is a better move. When people limp in with complete crap you want to punish them by exploiting your pot equity edge. Plus you have the possibility of buying better position. Even buying CO is worth something.

And yes, you have to get this turn. Stellar already said it best, so no need to be redundant here.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
KTs has little high card value - it derives its value from the speculative natures of the flush and straight

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Any 2 cards above 10 can't really be said to have little high card value. I have a King and a 10, I'm definitely packing some high card power which increases in value the more I narrow the field. Add to this that its suited and you've got a nice value raise pre-f.