Bob Dole Weighs In

[eLROY]

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This post is so full of unilateral assumptions and overgeneralizations

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If you already think that we don't understand each other, then you should try to make more specific and clearly-stated criticisms. Like offer an example.

What I believe, is that the people going around Manhattan with radiation detectors before New Year's Eve were not homeless schizophrenic crazies. They were police acting as a result of genuine risks.

Of course people like Ramsey Yusef would nuke us if they could get a device. And Saddam Hussein, whose life goals were 1) nukes, and 2) killing George Bush, was their best hope to get them.

Are you really surprised that people like me believe these things? What is your opinion of our nuclear terrorist risk in 1999, 2001, and today? And if it is above zero, then can you describe how it might happen, put a face or a possible story to it?

[Rooster71]

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What inaccuracies and/or exaggerations would make what Dole said less objectionable?

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John Kerry painted the other people in that picture with him as psycho war criminals. And they hate him for it. So he should apologize. Why is this hard to understand?

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Kerry has no reason to apologize. Your statement that "John Kerry painted the other people in that picture with him as psycho war criminals" is very broad. Maybe some were psycho war criminals, but he did not put down any individual or group specifically (as your statement suggests). He painted pictures of atrocities that occurred, that's vastly different from painting the other people in that picture with him as "psycho war criminals."

[eLROY]

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Your statement that "John Kerry painted the other people in that picture with him as psycho war criminals" is very broad.

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No, actually my statement is very specific, referring to specific people in a specific picture. Though Kerry meant his description of his experience to be taken as representative of US soldiers in general. So you wouldn't be surprised if other US soldiers were bothered by him.

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Maybe some were psycho war criminals, but he did not put down any individual or group specifically (as your statement suggests).

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What planet are you on? He absolutely did! He said the soldiers he served with were evil. And not just that, he said they were cowards who left a man behind, whereas he was brave. And he said that identifiable individuals in his chain of command, right up to Richard Nixon who wasn't even in office yet, ordered him to commit atrocities.

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He painted pictures of atrocities that occurred, that's vastly different from painting the other people in that picture with him as "psycho war criminals."

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You're nuts. He even painted himself in that picture. He said he, himself committed war crimes!

[Rooster71]

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Former Sen. Bob Dole, a World War II veteran and 1996 Republican presidential nominee, suggested Kerry apologize for his 1971 testimony to Congress about atrocities U.S. soldiers allegedly committed in Vietnam.


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I used to like Bob Dole. I never thought he would make this sort of stupid request for an "apology".

[Rooster71]

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According to the "Swift Voat Veterans for the Bruth", Kerry shot a young teenager in the back clad in a loin cloth running away from him unarmed.

So were the Swifties aware of atrocities committed by Kerry, and didn't report them? Covered up known atrocities?
Or are the Not-So-Swifties lying about Kerry's actions?

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It is obvious that the Not-So-Swifties have repressed these horrid memories of Kerry killing young teenagers. Now that Kerry is in the spotlight these 35 year old repressed memories of Kerry have come flooding back with a vengeance.

[Chris Alger]

The idea of Kerry owing an apology for whistle blowing about war atrocities is about what we'd expect from this stalwart party hack.

But Dole also said this: "One day, he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons. The next day, he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'"

That makes sense. Kerry's cynicism about Vietnam is a legitimate issue that betrays a character as bad or worse than Bush's. Kerry's a manipulative weasel who (1) participated in a criminal war that any student in Boston could have explained to him was a crime; (2) bailed out to condemn not so much the war but the way it's fought; (3) bragged about his noble service during that war; (4) in order to claim that he's suited to better prosecute another wrong war. This guy expects to get the antiwar vote after admitting that he'd support the war authorization resolution all over again?

I don't care if I'm in a swing state. Ralph gets my vote again.

[sam h]

I found nothing in that testimony that is objectionable. Kerry gives a pretty honest account of what come out in the Winter Soldier hearings. He never says that every soldier in Vietnam committed atrocities and he ultimately puts the blame for the debacle where it should lie, which is on the shoulders of those in charge of the war.

If he later disowned his words, I blame him only for retreating from what was a courageous original position.

[andyfox]

"There's always something odd with you, andyfox."

-We're in agreement there.


"Bush hasn't backed away from that, he still stands by it!"

-I never said he backed away from it. I said it's over the top.


"And his core supporters agree with him, which is probably why he stands by it."

-I hope one of the debate questioners asks him if, in light of the non-discovery of the WMD cache, he would still say the same thing again. But if your point is that a politician will stand by a statement if his core constituency wants him too, then I'm in agreement.


"But that's why he is President, because the views that come naturally to him, nearly always win me over after if I take a moment to think about them."

-That's not why he's president. It's why you support him. He's president because there are five Republicans on the Supreme Court. Were there five Democrats, Gore would be president, and that's why he would be president.

"Kerry's core supporters not only believe that the war in Iraq is evil, they probably also still hold the statements he made about Vietnam as truthful and important."

-I can't speak for others, only for myself. I'm voting for Kerry because, in my judgment, he's the lesser of two evils. I'm using the word "evil" here in the saying "lesser of two evils," not to mean that either gentleman is truly evil. There is no question that his statements about Vietnam were truthful and important.

"Unless he considers himself the king of the idiots, why doesn't he try to sell the beliefs which his supporters hold dear?"

-Because he's running for office and wants to win. Will Bush deliberately bring up his anti-nation building comments, or the fact that he was hesitant to have a 9/11 commission, or anything else that, in his judgment, or that of his political advisors, would not play well?

[sam h]

There are individual Vietnam veterans who feel Kerry has personally slandered them in various remarks, especially to his biographer. These people may have good cases. It's impossible to tell.

Then there is much larger group of Vietnam veterans who feel that Kerry's actions in 1971 gave them a bad name. If you read his testimony, however, he of course never cast the net that wide, and made pains to blame those in charge of the war rather than those fighting it. But the populace may not have taken it that way, of course, and so Vietnam Veterans Against the War may have contributed to the negative feelings of many Americans towards veterans in general. But that's not really Kerry's fault, is it?

Overall, however, I think that many veterans resent Kerry because he pointed out the truth - that the war was fundamentally wrong-headed, that we were slaughtering millions of people, and that we were sending young men to South Asia to sacrifice themselves for a terrible cause. There is nothing tougher to swallow than the fact that a defining event in your life - one in which you probably saw friends die and took lives yourself - was for a cause that was neither righteous nor necessary. But that's the ultimate tragedy of the war.

[eLROY]

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He's president because there are five Republicans on the Supreme Court. Were there five Democrats, Gore would be president, and that's why he would be president.

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What hole have you been hiding in? Bush is President because he got Florida's electoral votes. He got Florida's electoral votes because he beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. And the Florida Secretary of State certified the election - as the Founding Fathers intended. And subsequent experiments have shown that, even if Democrat inventors kept counting for 2 months, Bush still would have won. You really sadden me when you cling to insane delusions like this. This is not poker, there is no prize for second place. Jeb Bush won reelection in Florida in 2002, what are you going to do about it?