Losing too much money...

[mrjim]

I agree w/ the others in saying you should probably play at lower limits. Try Pacific or Paradise for lower limit games (I assume you're playing Party). Others like Pokerstars, but I haven't played there so I can't comment.

[Rudbaeck]

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This data actually proves that it's HUGELY profitable to play KQo UTG. A win of 0.40BB per play is humongous. Especially as this is an average of ALL players EV from that position/hand combo. So this is about as much as a clown would make on this hand.

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Well the 0.40 was for KQs, KQo was 0.05BBs.

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My reading comprehension is through the floor. I'll go stand in the corner in shame for a while.

But still, if KQo is 0.05 for an average player, which probably means someone who plays 2/4 or even lower on average, it should be profitable for anyone who has read a couple of books and is interested enough to come here and read 2+2 and post questions.

[RED_RAIN]

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QJo is a poor hand though, worthy of a raise to steal the blinds and maybe limping from late position for its straight potential.

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You should not limp from late position with this hand, if you want to play it, and no limpers, raise it. If there were one or two in, and I were on the button, then maybe I would limp.

[RED_RAIN]

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Against strong opponents, I don't think KQo is worth playing UTG. The +0.05 value is tainted by the players who overcall on the river with 66 unimproved. If you plan to move up, don't count on the concentration of bad players remaining constant.

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Being that I know a lot of 15/30 - 30/60 players who preflop raise KQo UTG, is a reason why I don't agree with you not playing this hand.

If you go balls to the walls with KQo against a bunch of opponents, yeah you will throw away bets, you need to have good post flop play with this hand, especially if you get 4-5 people to the flop.

Paying attention if it's a rag flop or not and player reads/notes is also important.

KQo SHOULD be a winning hand for you UTG, the higher up you get, the more respect raises get. Even at 2/4 and 3/6, the good players will get out of the way of an UTG PFR, and there are very few hands a good player would ever cold call preflop, but bad players will call suited crap.

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Against strong opponents

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Why are you playing in such a hard game? I have yet to find a night where I can't find 4 good tables to play at 3/6 or below, which I think this audience is mostly at.

[pzhon]

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Against strong opponents, I don't think KQo is worth playing UTG.

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Being that I know a lot of 15/30 - 30/60 players who preflop raise KQo UTG, is a reason why I don't agree with you not playing this hand.

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On average, 30-60 players are losers. On average, they make enough mistakes to allow a few 30-60 players to win despite the rake. The average level of play may be higher, but that a few 30-60 players make some play is a very weak argument.

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KQo SHOULD be a winning hand for you UTG, the higher up you get, the more respect raises get.

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Non sequitur. That your raise gets respect means that people properly fold hands like K8o or QJo after you raise. You win more if people make bad calls. Bad calls are a huge source of profit for a player who is tight-aggressive preflop.

I maintain that KQo UTG is increasingly dangerous at higher levels. Here are some more figures from Pokerroom.

KQo UTG, 10-handed.

$1/$2 0.10
$2/$4 0.02
$3/$6 0.09
$5/$10 -.05
$10/20 -.12
$25/$50 -.17 (few samples)

Doesn't this data support my argument that KQo UTG is more dangerous in higher limits? If you play KQo UTG at low limits, you may want to break that habit later when you move up.

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Why are you playing in such a hard game?

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I usually don't, but sometimes I play at higher limits to win more ($, not BB/100), to clear bonuses, and to have more fun. You can act more creatively against thinking opponents than the usual routine of value bet, value bet, value bet in low limits.

Anyway, once again, I don't feel strongly about KQo. Other discussions on KQo on 2+2 have suggested that the decision is close, and depends on the game. I don't think QJo UTG is close. Here are the analogous Pokerroom data for QJo UTG:

QJo UTG, 10-handed

$1/2 -.09
$2/$4 -.05
$3/$6 -.05
$5/$10 -.31
$10/$20 -.19
$25/$50 -.86 (few samples)

I doubt I will convince you not to play KQo UTG, but I hope at least one person rethinks the strength of QJo as a result of this thread.

[MrHorace]

Helpme, will playing the free money games be a worthwhile experience, where much is "No Fold'Em Hold'Em", and could it cause bad habits?
Also, I like your idea to move to lower limit when you lose 100 BB. I would like to start at 0.50/$1 as I've been playing $2/$4 live, but of course need the $300 bankroll. Do you think this limit might be too high to start? It's comfortable for me, but welcome your opinion.
thanks.

[MrHorace]

Nottom did an awesome job of making the obvious obvious. I also thought I had preflop play down pretty well, and thought my problem was playing on the flop. However two things helped:
1) Right now I play live in a casino (soon to change though to online), and someone on 2+2 forum suggested waiting 2 orbits before playing ANY hand unless I had a monster. This exercise taught me that I'd been playing some marginal hands, QTo in mid/late position, etc.
2) In SSH by Ed Miller I just finished the section on dominated hands. This is an AWESOME section. Read it, and you'll gain a good understanding of why you may be having problems.

Good luck,
MrHorace

[Kopefire]

What is SSH?

I see that I think "secure shell" but i'm guessing that's not what's meant here.

[RED_RAIN]

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On average, 30-60 players are losers.

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This means little. At every level there are more losers than winners.

I find it funny for people who go on Pokerroom stats as those are general not concrete data as each game changes with level and players.

The rake has little affect at 30/60 since at most places lve and online have a rake cap is pretty small in comparison to these pots.

QJo UTG is just retarded. There is no sound argument to make to make this a playable hand consistently in a 10-person game. Yippie.

And no, your arguements (or lack there of, except if you count a lot of stats) have not changed my opinion.

Regardless of how high you get in limits, there are always people that play bad, maybe less as you go up, but people cold calling or 3 betting you with weaker hands than KQo UTG can be found on a common basis.

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I usually don't, but sometimes I play at higher limits to win more ($, not BB/100),

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This makes me lose a lot of value in your post. Why not keep playing in the highest game you can if you win more $? This shows me you probably have little playing experience, or are just a break-even or slightly winning player. Someone can crush .5/1 for 4 BBs over the long run but won't be anywhere close to that at 30/60, but if they can beat both, doesn't mean you should play .5/1 because your BB/100 is higher.

[stripsqueez]

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If you wanna go broke and continually put money into your account, tilt more often because you are underfunded then start with less than 300BB.

It is easy to lose 100BB and for a beginner with little knowledge of variance it is much better to start with a 300BB or more

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i think so too

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Sure someone with a lot of experience playing well below their limit can play with much less.

But a beginner with minimal experience its best to play it safe.

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people with lots of experience play with 600+BB's

stripsqueez - chickenhawk