Hand To Talk About

[mike l.]

"Regardless of the outcome, betting the nuts on the river is going to result in AT LEAST one more bet often enough."

stop being naive. your statement is true for typical 10-20 games but heads up higher limits it's correct to check even the nuts sometimes on the river. every street of every hand is situational and thinking like "always bet the nuts on the river" is just plain -EV nonsense. (btw we went over this credo before. tommy said it was the best advice some mid limit hero from vegas or someone had given him. and he was wrong.)

[mike l.]

"a turn check-raise at a mid limit game does not usually mean semi-bluff'

there was no turn checkraise on this hand. mason bet the turn and was raised by a player behind him who called a bet and then two more cold on the flop.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Mike,

I never said as a general rule always bet the nuts on the river. Here I believe it's correct. You got raised on the turn. Bet the river and hope to collect a few more bets, but expect to collect at least one. If he had nothing, you already got all your going to get. There are situations where a check is correct, but I don't agree this is one of them. And the higher limit argument only makes me feel stronger about this oppononent calling one more bet, and not folding most of the time.
Your arguement about Mason's tight play only leads me to believe that if Mason called the turn raise and his opponent is worried about that, then it's more likely to get checked behind as there is no way in hell his opponent can get Mason to fold for one more bet on the river. Sure you might induce a bluff, but not as often as it's getting checked behind, and not as often as your oppononent is at least calling one more bet. This has been my experience at every level, but I'll agree with you moreso in the 15-30 range. But since this is the more common range on this forum, 10-20 to 30-60, betting the river here is more relevant advice to a larger number of posters.

I understand this may have been discussed before, but I don't get a chance to post as often as I'd like so I may miss some of these topics.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not positive which action is best on the River, BUT consider this:

A) The hands most consistent with Mason's play on every street are the Ace of Hearts suited flush draws. This is actually more important than it may seem at first glance.

B) Once Mason calls the Turn raise, his opponent must pretty well know that Mason is not going to fold the river unless Mason was on a draw that missed (and the obvious draw didn't miss). Also Mason has a tight solid image (we shall presume). That sort of image may make one a candidate for a one-shot bluff but not often a double-shot bluff. Just what could Mason call the Turn raise with yet lay down on the River? Hence the opponent should know Mason is at least calling on the River. Given that, Mason's betting the River makes more sense.

Now of course the Turn raiser may put Mason on a big pair and bet the River with an Ace in order to force Mason to pay off. That is how Mason might get an extra bet out of the opponent if Mason checks. But the opponent, if he is a thinking player, almost surely isn't going to bluff the River.


also, you wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
only the most naive players fall for that stop n go, it's outdated by a few years at least.

[/ QUOTE ]


So...the best players don't "fall for it" and often lay down in big pots for one more bet? Somehow I think you may be are oversimplifying a bit at least. Either that, or you're giving us a pretty good line on how to beat mike l.;-)

Good theoretical play rarely really gets "outdated" IMO.

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
"a turn check-raise at a mid limit game does not usually mean semi-bluff'

there was no turn checkraise on this hand. mason bet the turn and was raised by a player behind him who called a bet and then two more cold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok change it to a turn raise in a mid limit game is not always a semi-bluff. I will agree that a bluff or semi bluff possibility goes up as the limits get higher. But so do turn raises with less than the nuts, and hands your opponent would call for one more bet on the river in decent size pots and maybe raise with.

[tolbiny]

Sure you might induce a bluff, but not as often as it's getting checked behind, and not as often as your oppononent is at least calling one more bet

Sure, but your opponent has to call the checkraise less than half as often as he will check behind to make it profitable.

[elysium]

hi mason

the really outstanding feature in this hand is the fold on the river by the two pair. that shouldn't be happening mason. that's the thing you look for when trying to decide if there are any weaknesses in your game. now, it's not always desireable to have every bet made called down, even when making a value bet. if that is the case, then you are probably making bets that you shouldn't be. however, in this game, what you're doing and how your opponents are responding, aren't synched together real well. (you'll have to bear with me through some unfamiliar analytic terminology) i'm involved pretty heavily now in computer run telescope stuff i know absolutely nothing about. i can't even set this stupid thing up. it's already swung around once and floored me.

when they're passive like this, you need to tweek the field just ever so because this can be a good field. i actually often prefer a passive field to a loose field. you actually have more control. but, the problem is not getting called in spots like this one. it's not a major problem, i agree. it's still not ideal though.

what you need to do, IMO, is run a total bluff when it has a good chance of suceeding. it has to be a start to finish bluff, not a semi. you have to run that thing until you get caught. it has to be timed such that the field thinks you're winning too frequently, so it also has to be run when you are winning. this hand is a perfect example indicating that right now is a great time to bluff with nothing from start to finish.

will you ever bet with nothing? no mason. of course not. i'm sure you've experimented around and have found the results pretty lackluster. if timed correctly though, you might be surprised at how well an accurately timed bluff with nothing can tweek a very passive/ good field like this one. you can begin to catch the onto the game's breathing rhythm and make a rhythm pinch. like now, you can begin to feel the game has reached the peak of its inhalation cycle, which now you quickly bluff with nothing and in this way, pinch the game's nose, and when it starts turning blue, you release, collecting all the extra calls as you bet heavily during the game's exhalation cycle, as the field trys to buy you off the game's diaphram. (as you can probably tell, i'm also studying scuba diving and snorkling) i hate it when your mask fills up with water like that.

pinch mason, pinch. sometimes you've got to pinch with absolutely nothing. the field will call you just to catch their breath. never let them know what cards you are going to show. never let them know what you're going to say.

pinch.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

This opponent first called for just one bet on the flop, then called two more cold, and then raised the turn. Because of the way the flop was played, it looks like his hand could be very strong.

best wishes,
mason

[mike l.]

"what you're doing and how your opponents are responding, aren't synched together real well."

exactly.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

[ QUOTE ]
"Most players tend to freeze up when a flush hits the board"

not at the higher levels. they value bet far more and are less concerned with things like a flush card falling on the river heads up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but a corollary to this is that they will also raise with questionable hands on the turn which they want to check down on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
by betting all mason did was convince his opponent to give up on any bluff he may have been on.


[/ QUOTE ]

But his flop play seems to indicate that he's not on a bluff. If he had nothing, why would he call first for one bet, and then for two more (on the flop).

Best wishes,
Mason