Jacked Up?

[Gramps]

Babe,

There's only 8.5 BB in the pot on the Turn when it's your turn to act. That's less than half the pot size you need to justify the Turn call with two outs (if you're proceeding like you're behind, and intend to fold the River unimproved).

Certainly if you call there, it's with the intention of going to showdown. That's the mystifying part of this hand - calling the Turn and folding the River. 99% of the time, that Queen didn't change whether you were ahead or behind. So, you must have thought you might be ahead when you called the Turn bet.

[JTG51]

Even if my worst fears on the turn were correct (as they were), I still had two outs and the pot is attractive enough for me to call the turn hoping for the miracle river

Yup, as long as you can get 15 bets out of him when the Jack hits.

[1800GAMBLER]

There's no way an unknown 20/40 players bluffing frequency/hands you can beat gets so low on the river, yet not the turn, that you can fold here. Nope, never.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet, I think it's unusual for a player to make it 4 on the flop with an underpair and then to bet the river when a face card comes after getting some resistance from an UTG raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unusual, but they exist. like Clark said, medium or even low pocketpair (i don't like the usage or "underpair" here) or a flush draw with with two medium cards might play the same way, granted he needs to be a pretty aggressive player, but you did say he was unknown didn't you?

You being a girl or a pretty girl (please don't take this as offensive) might indeed have some effect on the opponent and either make them play straight up or more tricky, only you know it, so i guess in that regard, it is possible for you to have better reads sometimes.

In anycase, what you need to figure out is: how much $ in theory did you save in the long run by making this correct fold? is it worth the risk of making a mistake? to me, it'd be a mistake, because my reads wouldn't be so solid on a stranger.

Kenny

[TheLoser]

I think his hand alone shows you should called the river. If he is calling your raise with 9,4 is he not capable of going nutty with a mid PP or a flush draw? I do not get to play much live poker but I recently went away for a month and played 20-40 to 50-100 for a month depending on what game is running and your arguement that any thinking opponent would assume you are going to call the river would work if most of your opponents were thinking opponents.During my trip I saw very few players who put much thought into anything even at the 50-100 game

[Zeno]

Are the games so loose that no credence is given to hand reading skills anymore? Even if the person is an unknown you can still glean information and make the proper lay down. Especially against relatively unthinking players, if that is your read. But if you knew the player had a 9, perhaps a fold on the turn or river was in order. But others are more properly disposed to discuss that.

In a 10-20 game recently I made a read and called the river with pocket sixes - My hand was good - to quote a famous phase.

But then, I'm a misanthrope, so I do things like that based solely on reading skill. Is this now passé?

-Zeno

PS. I think you should have titled your post- Jacked Off. It would garner more hits and make 2+2 happier. I think.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
What most people here realize is that someone calling a 4th bet on the flop and calling on the turn is pretty unlikely to fold the river. Any thinking opponent knows that if I am calling the turn, I am hard pressed to NOT throw in the 40 on the river. Remember that this guy doesn't know me at all. I would expect that he would expect me to call the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

The main problem i see with this thinking? You dont know him. I understand what you're saying, but he's an unknown. I will give some credit that sometimes you can get a little line on one's play by their betspeed and bodylanguage. I know you've played enough to clue into this if it presents itself. I did this recently with JJ against a gal's AA. She was on auto-bet with a 4 way pot preflop and on the flop. She seemed like a little less seasoned player. I folded the turn with no overcards. She went all the way and showed AA. But had i called her turn, i'd have called her river. (actually, i'd have had to raise her turn) This could be what you were 'sensing' during this hand.

I dont agree with Oz in this case. I think you can wait to make the play he's thinking of until you know the player better. I would rather establish against the 'new' player that i won't fold the river for 1 bet here. That to me, might make it more likely that i can read his river bets better in later hands since he will have to think more that i will call him. Otherwise, you 'could' open yourself up to some bluff bets on the river.

Though if he's calling the Babe's raises with 94o, he may only have enough brain power to move chips in the pot. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
It seemed bizarre that someone 2 UTG would call my raise with A,9

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
To my amazement, I see a red 9 and a black 4.


[/ QUOTE ]

Gotta love that.

b

[Clarkmeister]

"I would rather establish against the 'new' player that i won't fold the river for 1 bet here."

Good point, and another reason why the specific advice given in this thread is correct for the situation posted.

[bernie]

Yknow, i thought about that part of my post today. Wasn't sure if i should have put it in as i wasn't sure if i explained it right. But in comparison to Oz's concept that he brought up, i thought it may be relevant. In Oz's concept that he brought up, those are more 'known' players.

I almost made a different post/thread about playing against unknowns and the first image, in this regard, that you want to portray to them. I want them to think they will likely have to bet stronger hands into me on the river. Keep them more readable for as long as i can.

thanks for the response. Im glad i left it in.

b

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I discussed this hand with some well respected players today and someone made a very insightful and important point about folding the river for "one more bet" here. .

What most people here realize is that someone calling a 4th bet on the flop and calling on the turn is pretty unlikely to fold the river. Any thinking opponent knows that if I am calling the turn, I am hard pressed to NOT throw in the 40 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


I also found a lot of merit in Barry Tanenbaum's comments about calling the turn and folding the river sometimes against thinking opponents. The key word being "thinking" -- not some idiot who cold-calls an early raise with 94o. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Of course, you didn't know that until the hand was over.