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#21
09-02-2004, 11:21 AM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
[ QUOTE ]
We clearly don't agree about the definition of "post-flop play". When you are in a pot against, say, 3 players, when it was raised PF by yourself, it makes a great difference whether you are acting 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th on the flop and later. Acting last gives you a much greater chance to win the pot if no one had shown any willing to bet, and you have MUCH more information than otherwise. It's basic. That's why ATo from the button is MUCH stronger than ATo from UTG, whether you are first to act PF (folded to you), or you simply limp behind callers PF. The ability to make a position-bet is very important. I really can not understand how you can dismiss like that the importance of position. It is critical for such vulnerable hands, and what's more: it's the ABC of the game. [/ QUOTE ] What is so hard about ATo against 4 opponents? If you miss you fold. And possibly check call if an ace flops against multiple opponents. [ QUOTE ] I don't see what you mean here. Reread my last reply about losing with AA and KK during the last 2 days. 71 tournaments is a very small sample in regard to specific hands in specific positions and in specific stages of the game. And what do you mean by "more than avarage"? This is very unclear. Avarage of what? [/ QUOTE ] More than an average number of tournaments. I gave the limit of my tournaments when I first posted to let the reader know what I was playing at. Obviously in the bigger tournaments, you can't just double up once and then fold into the money like the smaller tournaments, you need to steal more blinds. Raising ATo in early rounds has been positive for me in the long run, and I will keep playing that way. My post was meant to show what I play ATo like in the higher limits. 
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#22
09-02-2004, 12:34 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
The problem is when you get called on the flop and then bet at on the turn, especially with draws on the board. Do you call here most of the time, or are you beat? Or do you simply not get played back at?
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#23
09-02-2004, 12:48 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is when you get called on the flop and then bet at on the turn, especially with draws on the board. Do you call here most of the time, or are you beat? Or do you simply not get played back at? [/ QUOTE ] If the opponent calls on the flop I almost always give up. I will also check the turn if it is an ace. I will check the turn a lot of the time even with a good hands so it mixes up well. If an ace does turn, the opponent might try and bluff the turn, but rarely ever bluffs the river as well.
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#24
09-02-2004, 01:00 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
[ QUOTE ] What is so hard about ATo against 4 opponents? [/ QUOTE ] Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. I've never said playing ATo against 3 (not 4, in my example) is hard. I was refering to the fact that position is critiacl, and can very well turn ATo from -EV into +EV. That was my point, and it was in regard to you saying position does not matter since there is no post-flop play. I find it absurd. [ QUOTE ] If you miss you fold. And possibly check call if an ace flops against multiple opponents. [/ QUOTE ] Again, you seem to miss the point I'm refering to. With position you can take down pots, much more often, even when you "miss". However, the fact is that even if you "hit" your flop with ATo (Pairing your ace that is, or hitting a T high flop) you are in a bit of a difficult situation, more so if there are 2-3 players to act behind you. Again, I think this is fairly simple. To conclude, if you play post-flop very well, especially in higher buy-ins, ATo could be somewhat +EV for you, not more. In lower buy-ins it is definitely -EV against many opponent, IMO, and over-all it is pretty much a marginal hand from UTG.
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#26
09-02-2004, 01:16 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
[ QUOTE ]
What do you class a miss? Only KQJ and ATx are hits. Lori [/ QUOTE ] Actually I only classify KQJ three suited a hit and ATx is hard because somebody could have a set or a straight draw.
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#27
09-02-2004, 01:24 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
Mack don't let this thread mislead you. A 10 against many when UTG is not a good hand. If you raise and get any action you hate it. If you don't get any action you stole blinds - woopeee!
If you limp, hardly any flop is any good. Stay away unless - as posted - it is late game and getting desperate. GL
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#28
09-02-2004, 01:33 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
Hey, 4-5 handed, ATo UTG is a pretty good hand to steal blinds with. You don't exactly have to getting desperate, taking the blinds just has to be worth enough of your stack or the other guys stack.
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#29
09-02-2004, 01:34 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
[ QUOTE ]
Hey, 4-5 handed, ATo UTG is a pretty good hand to steal blinds with. You don't exactly have to getting desperate, taking the blinds just has to be worth enough of your stack or the other guys stack. [/ QUOTE ] No it isn't, it is better just to get blinded down and hope for AA or KK.
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#30
09-02-2004, 02:03 PM
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Re: I don\'t know what to do with ATo
[ QUOTE ]
Hey, 4-5 handed, ATo UTG is a pretty good hand to steal blinds with. You don't exactly have to getting desperate, taking the blinds just has to be worth enough of your stack or the other guys stack. [/ QUOTE ] Did you read the specific post you are replying to, and the other posts here? No body was speaking about bubble situations. Of course ATo is strong short-handed.
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