SSHE Book Club Discussion - Part Two: Preflop Concepts

[AtlChip10]

[ QUOTE ]
Read the text, understand the concepts and apply the concepts. Forget the charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the single best advice for this section. I myself like most new players relied very heavily on charts for a long time. But once I recieved SSHE and read the preflop chapter, I decided to take each situation by itself and make an actual decision based on the type of hand I was contemplating making a play with. Since that paradigm shift of sorts, my preflop play and general confidence have improved ten fold. So yea, forget the charts, understand the hand types, and play accordingly.

[BusterFlush]

[ For example, what do you guys do with AKo from the button if it has been raise twice ahead of you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You cap it!

[BusterFlush]

Playing A-X suited is a must in the loose low limit games. The key is you must know going in that if a flush draw or two pair are not flopped, you must get out of the hand. The discipline to make this fold consistently is the key.
Getting trapped playing A-X for high card value is a -EV play.

[Toonces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read the text, understand the concepts and apply the concepts. Forget the charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the single best advice for this section. I myself like most new players relied very heavily on charts for a long time. But once I recieved SSHE and read the preflop chapter, I decided to take each situation by itself and make an actual decision based on the type of hand I was contemplating making a play with. Since that paradigm shift of sorts, my preflop play and general confidence have improved ten fold. So yea, forget the charts, understand the hand types, and play accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I see your point, I'm not sure that I agree. In my opinion, when you tell a player to substitute his own opinions for that of an expert player (even one that is generalizing), he's more likely to get the specific situation wrong than right. Let's face it. There aren't THAT many factors that distinguish your pre-flop situation from a default preflop situation. Ed already distinguishes between loose and tight games. So, all you have left are loose v. aggressive, and the specifics of where the calls and raises came from.

It just reminds me of blackjack players that THINK that they are counting cards, so they don't double on 11 v. 7 becuase they see too many high cards on the table without any idea of just how many high cards are needed to change the situation in this scenario.

I have to think that at least 98% of your decisions are most correctly made in accordiance with the chart.

Disagree?

[driller]

I think most of the differences are due to how each player handles the "steal" situations.

[Toonces]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing A-X suited is a must in the loose low limit games. The key is you must know going in that if a flush draw or two pair are not flopped, you must get out of the hand. The discipline to make this fold consistently is the key.
Getting trapped playing A-X for high card value is a -EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt Ed would agree. For certain, flopping 1-pair with a backdoor flush is usually quite playable. In addition, I would assume that flopping top pair with no kicker is still a marginal hand when the flop is not scary. But we can save these thoughts for the next chapter.

[BusterFlush]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing A-X suited is a must in the loose low limit games. The key is you must know going in that if a flush draw or two pair are not flopped, you must get out of the hand. The discipline to make this fold consistently is the key.
Getting trapped playing A-X for high card value is a -EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt Ed would agree. For certain, flopping 1-pair with a backdoor flush is usually quite playable. In addition, I would assume that flopping top pair with no kicker is still a marginal hand when the flop is not scary. But we can save these thoughts for the next chapter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree if A-x is held and top pair is flopped, testing the waters is the right play for the experienced player. Using the guidelines I suggested saves the inexperienced player from calling down hands with kicker problems yet allows them to cash in on their flush draws.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I thought it went like this. With AKo, if it's raised, you 3-bet. If it's 3 bets to you, you fold. With AKs, you cap in that situation.

I'm not sure if it's four bets already, but I'd probably call four cold with AKs and muck AKo?

[maryfield48]

One of the problem areas I have with the charts is the amount of open limping it calls for. Reading the advice given by posters that I respect on the Micro & SS forums I have the impression that a lot of the hands they would advise open-raising with, SSHE's charts say limp. I'm thinking hands like KJo in MP.

In fact the whole concept of opening the pot pre-flop is not given much (any?) attention at all.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the problem areas I have with the charts is the amount of open limping it calls for. Reading the advice given by posters that I respect on the Micro & SS forums I have the impression that a lot of the hands they would advise open-raising with, SSHE's charts say limp. I'm thinking hands like KJo in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've noticed the same thing. I'm guessing this is left out because so much depends on your table. If I'm at a table where people are routinely coldcalling, I'm not really inclined to open-raise with KJo since I'm going to be playing the hand out of position, it's easily dominated (even by hands that don't warrant a coldcall, like AJo), and my pfr won't limit the field as much as I would like. On the other hand, I wouldn't hesitate to open-raise this at a tighter table where I think there's a good chance to get HU or pick up the blinds.