JTo in the BB

[flyangler]

:grunching:
Yes fold preflop.
Flop play did not make sense to me either, why reraise with middle pair? Call or better yet fold here.
Turn is fine.
Fold the river obviously.
I would fold this preflop nearly every time.
-flyangler-

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought button raised, not SB. Since SB raised he could be betting unimproved

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue that if it was checked to the button on the flop that it would be more likely he was betting unimproved.

[deception5]

I'm getting very concerned with all of these answers:

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Flop hell, against a raise you're so dominated it's not even funny, and you don't have sooted to back you up. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is meh

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop >> I would fold, so says the SSHE chart.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold this pre-flop, but you already knew that.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF, you're not suited and easily dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have decent high card strength and connectivity. The pot is going to be large and your opponents will often chase when you hit big.

Ran this through pokerstove and even giving the preflop raiser an extremely tight range (JJ+, AQs+, AKo), with 3 other players padding the pot:

1,173,484 games 15.922 secs 73,702 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.6952 % 40.25% 00.49% { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 17.3192 % 16.66% 00.68% { JTo }
Hand 3: 14.0066 % 13.27% 00.75% { random }
Hand 4: 13.9744 % 13.24% 00.75% { random }
Hand 5: 14.0046 % 13.27% 00.75% { random }

We have way more than 10% of the equity needed to make this call getting 9:1.

In fact even in the worst case where many of our outs are gone:

2,583,859 games 21.970 secs 117,608 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.3488 % 39.24% 00.11% { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 10.3732 % 09.96% 00.41% { JTo }
Hand 3: 16.8458 % 16.82% 00.03% { 99 }
Hand 4: 16.9244 % 16.48% 00.44% { QTs }
Hand 5: 16.5078 % 16.48% 00.03% { 87s }

It is still almost EV neutral to make this call. And it is extremely unlikely that our opponents hands are this strong as they are loose and will limp with almost anything. A more typical example is probably:

1,670,525 games 11.625 secs 143,701 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.6217 % 32.34% 00.28% { JJ+, AJs+, KQs, AQo }
Hand 2: 18.2702 % 18.11% 00.16% { JTo }
Hand 3: 13.8991 % 13.85% 00.05% { 84o }
Hand 4: 17.1106 % 16.94% 00.17% { K2s }
Hand 5: 18.0983 % 18.05% 00.05% { 33 }

I would be interested if anyone would like to debate this further, but please don't tell me "SSH says to fold JT to a raise so it's a clear fold".

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn would be spewing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Understood

[@bsolute_luck]

since you quoted me- i was "preflop is meh" (i like "meh" such a good "whatever" wordish-thing)- i feel i should clarify:

it has been repeated commented that preflop is gay and tons of people agreed on a long posting by Entity not too long ago. and yet almost every post, people comment on preflop play.

so either it is gay or worth mentioning. there are players that ca

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
since you quoted me- i was "preflop is meh" (i like "meh" such a good "whatever" wordish-thing)- i feel i should clarify:

it has been repeated commented that preflop is gay and tons of people agreed on a long posting by Entity not too long ago. and yet almost every post, people comment on preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad then - I interpreted it as the preflop play is poor/borderline.

[Bodhi]

If this is a place where we don't want over-calls, then would a river raise be crazy?

[Boolean]

Wow, thanks for all the comments, I appreciate it. Hopefully more of my hands can create discussions like this. I think I need to read SSHE's preflop section once more though, because I almost missed this call and I still doubted it after I made it. I'll use PokerStove more to test my skeptical preflop folds/calls as well.

The preflop raiser had KK and UTG+1 boggled me by flipping over Q9 and taking the pot.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since you quoted me- i was "preflop is meh" (i like "meh" such a good "whatever" wordish-thing)- i feel i should clarify:

it has been repeated commented that preflop is gay and tons of people agreed on a long posting by Entity not too long ago. and yet almost every post, people comment on preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad then - I interpreted it as the preflop play is poor/borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't edit my post, but i lost internet connection and it cut-off. here's the rest just for my thought to be finished [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

since you quoted me- i was "preflop is meh" (i like "meh" such a good "whatever" wordish-thing)- i feel i should clarify:

it has been repeated commented that preflop is gay and tons of people agreed on a long posting by Entity not too long ago. and yet almost every post, people comment on preflop play.

so either it is gay or worth mentioning. there are players that can play JTo in this hand situation. some should fold as they will play passive or call down with junk- basically don't have good post flop skills including hand reading skills and player reads.

the "preflop is meh" is: play it or fold it. it is up to you. now TAKE ME OFF YOUR DAMN "CONCERNED" LIST [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]