Informal, unscientific poll....

[bigpooch]

I know it's utterly amazing and ridiculous to the Western
mind, and although I don't want to get inside Osama bin
Laden's mind, either 1) this is what he truly believed, or
2) something about Americans really pissed him off when he
was fighting the Russians in Afghanishtan.

Also, Osama bin Laden could also have been the pigeon or
front man for some anti-American Islamic groups and this
was the party line. I have not looked very intently on the
mind of some extremist Muslims, but some of them do really
think in that way (if I am not mistaken)! A friend of mine
mentioned that some Saudi extremists would think nothing of
killing Americans because American troops were "corrupting"
the Saudi women!

[ChipWrecked]

Thanks Al; I'm the only voter for yes/no: Sure, they probably doctored or spun evidence. I don't care whether there are WSD's or not. We need to wade around kicking asses until the Muslims themselves force a stop to the extremist's activities.

Want to stop suicide bombings in Israel? How about this:

For every Israeli killed in a bomb attack, 100 Palestinians will die. Just try us and find out if we're bluffing.

It might cut down on Israel's supply of cheap labor for a while, but you wouldn't see many more buses or pizza joints explode either.

[MMMMMM]

It should be utterly amazing to almost any mind, not just"the Western mind"--this is the 21st century, for God's sake!

As for Saudi extremists eager to kill Westerners for their "corrupting influences"--the whole damn region of the Middle East needs re-education in the most positive sense. The level of true ignorance over there is appalling.

[andyfox]

I suppose anything can be stopped if you make the punishment severe enough.

Then again, we did probably kill 100 Vietnamese for every one American killed and that didn't work. More Palestinians already die than Israelis in the violence.

Wading around kicking asses usually creates more terrorists than it eliminates.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm the only voter for yes/no: Sure, they probably doctored or spun evidence. I don't care whether there are WSD's or not. We need to wade around kicking asses until the Muslims themselves force a stop to the extremist's activities.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was OK with this part.

[ QUOTE ]
Want to stop suicide bombings in Israel? How about this:

For every Israeli killed in a bomb attack, 100 Palestinians will die. Just try us and find out if we're bluffing.

It might cut down on Israel's supply of cheap labor for a while, but you wouldn't see many more buses or pizza joints explode either.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's this part where you lost me. So you want the USA to kill palestinians to support israel?

I certainly do NOT support the US supporting EITHER FRIGGIN SIDE. The israelis cause as many problems for themselves (and us by default) as they claim to try and solve. I could not care less if the US supports israel at all.

I have clearly stated in the past give the damn palestinians their friggin land so they'll shut the hell up. Of course we all know they won't anyway, no matter how good a deal they get, but that's a different story. You could give them all of friggin persia and send the jews to antarctica, and they'd still hate the jews and vow to kill them anyway, even if they had to take a rowboat to antarctica.

Of course after all the jews have done for the palestinians, who can blame them. And of course after all the palestinians have done for the jews, who can blame them either. Thus the vicious cycle continues ad infinitum till we're all fukking dead, which is what it will take to please everyone in that disaster of a mess of a worthless desert of a land.

al

[CCass]

Two things have been mentioned in this thread that I believe very strongly.

1. The Saudi's are not our friends! Many of the problems with extremist groups in the Middle East can be traced to the Saudi's. They (the Saudi's) play both sides of the fence well.

2. We (the USA) need to stay out of the Isreal/Palestine conflict. We can't fix a 2,000 year old conflict, especially when at least one (and maybe both) sides of the conflict don't want it to be fixed.

IMO, neither the Democrats, nor the Republicans have handled either of these issues well.

[MMMMMM]

"Wading around kicking asses usually creates more terrorists than it eliminates."

Well so far it seems to be eliminating terrorists somewhat overall, and Libya just turned state's evidence and vows to work for good and for disarmament. More conciliatory noises have been emanating from North Korea, and Syria is not quite as bellicose as before. Even the mad mullahs in Iran have agreed to nuclear inspections.

So if we were just kicking asses indicriminately, I'd say you'd be right. But our targeted ass-kicking thus far seems to be having some desired effects. Another 5 years or so and I'd say things will be well on their way to reshaping in the image of the 21st century and progress and liberty, rather than the Dark Ages.

And as I said before, terrorists aren't hydras;-)

Your view is also thoroughly defeatist, because if we do NOTHING the loony tunes will still hate and attack us. So better to kick their butts, prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons, and work towards reforming the backward ways that got them into that place to begin with.

Sometimes andy right is simply right and backwardness is just, well, backwards.

I say we should kill all the terrorist training camps in the Middle East in one fell swoop--say a couple months from today. Totally flatten those training camps and militant headquarters with Daisy Cutters and see if your theory holds true. Bet it would take at least a decade to have that many terrorists again, and that would only be if we did nothing in the meantime.

[WillMagic]

Just to put things in perspective...

FDR was a major proponent of intervention in Germany (duh,) so much so that he told the American people that there was a serious threat that Germany would invade us, that we were on their "list." Of course, with a basic knowledge of geography, one would realize that invading the U.S. would have been impossible. But this Democratic President knew that our best interests lay with Britain winning the war.

So what is the price of stability? What is the price of knowing that Saddam Hussein will no longer be in control of a country? That he will not be able to pursue nukes?

This may sound callous, but it's worth a few thousand lives and an exaggeration or two from the president.

Just a few thoughts.

Will

[Utah]

It always reassures me that I am being fed unbiased into when there is a link on the homepage to U.S. human rights abuses.

Anyway, this made me laugh hysterically. On the site, here are some of the alleged U.S. torture methods:

1) Prisioners were subject to torture techniques such as feigned friendship, respect, and cultural sensitivity
2) Prisioners were interrogated by women (oh my god! Are you saying the U.S. wasn't sympathetic to the sexism of the captured? Oh, the Humanity!)
3) Prisioners were subject to flashing lights ans loud noises
4) prisoners were forced to stand or kneel for hours
5) prisoners were kept in metal shipping containers
6) Some prisoners held in Afghanistan were not permitted to speak with one another – at all
7) Prisioners weren't served milk and cookies promptly at 8:00 each night

Most of the rest of the list is pretty funny as well.

Dang, them U.S. interrogation boys are really going mediaeval! You know the gloves are off when the interrogators are not respecting cultural sensativities. It is only a matter of time down this slippery slope before the interrogators take away the prisioners down pillows.

[ChipWrecked]

No, I don't think we should be involved in the Israeli/Pali thing. Sorry I wasn't clear, I just used that as an example of how only force is respected in this part of the world. So when I say 'us', I'm putting myself in the place of the Israeli gov't. I sure as hell don't think the U.S. should hamstring them from taking care of business however they want. It would be a much more efficient use of the billions we give them.

It's my understanding that colonial England and France are the ones who screwed this all up with their border assignments after WW1 in the first place. That under the Ottomans, the cities had their 'quarters' (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Coptic) and everybody got along relatively well. The whole area ought to be redrawn with the nationalities getting their nations. How about some love for the Kurds? Let's carve some of Turkey, Iraq and Iran into Kurdistan, why not?


I used to sympathize with the Palestinians. Why should they lose their country, just so the Jews could have one?

But they lost me on 9/11. When I saw them party in the streets, I got kinda sour. Now I think they need killin'. Give them the express ticket to Paradise.

Let's make the Islamists fear the U.S., if they're going to hate us anyway. Make them think twice before they pull any more of this cowardly crap on us.

But hey, this is a forum, and I don't mind being flamed, I wouldn't speak if I did. Just to show that I'm not a zealot or don't have a sense of humor, here's a link that you anti-Bushies will love, and Bushies should get a chuckle out of, unless yer panties are bunched too tightly. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]