Lee Jones has warped my brain

[adsman]

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It is the best beginner book out there, although I have not read my copy of ITH. SSH is a terrible beginner's book. Somebody else posted, and I agree, that the best progression should be WLLH, MLH, SSH, TOP.

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It may be the best beginners book out there, but that's not saying much. I'd call it the best of a bad bunch. I reread it last night after the replies and criticisms to my post and if anything I am more convinced that its advice on postflop play is extremely suspect and thus dangerous for beginning players who take these lessons to heart, (my original point. Unfortunately I harped on about a flush example, not giving specifics, like how many players might be in the pot etc, and this became the focus of the post. Criticisms accepted. I must learn to be more clear.)

On page 112 of WLLH, Lee's advice is "...to fold and be done with it..." on the flop if you have middle pair, bottom pair, etc. No talk about backdoor draws, checkraising the field when in early position to a bet from late position etc, or the size of the pot. No. Just, fold and be done with it. Wonderful stuff.

Page 118, "When you have a great hand", he has you playing cautiously with an Ace high st8 on the flop with no flush draws because a flush draw could materialize on the Turn and then your opponent could be "free rolling" on you. Nothing about protecting your hand. The next example has you backing off with a set of Tens on the flop if an opponent keeps raising and then just check call on the turn and river. Is he serious?

Page 120 and his, "Play on the turn" has him giving freecards with an overpair becuase "a scary might turn up". And lets not forget his final advice of the book which is an entire page dedicated to folding.

A friend who plays Holdem for a living came over last night and sat with me while I played a table on the internet. In 20 minutes he identified 6BB I had missed out on due to defensive play postflop when other players raised into me. The underlining theme of WLLH is to play tight, (good) and defensively (bad). He might say to jam a pot with a flush draw but his overall teaching strategy is to be defensive and passive in the face of aggression. That lesson stuck deep. Hopefully I am on the way to unlearning it.

[droolie]

Jones advice works very well at the nano limits when pots are contested 6 way+ every hand and no amount of betting will induce folds. This is because it encourages folding in so many situations that you save bets for only the bets situations and lose very little through aggressive play. As soon as you get to .25/50 (or any limit above that) it will start costing you bets more often then it saves them for you thus it's a losing system. It certainly was difficult to break out of that mindset though.

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But it remains that the central focus of an aggressive "SSH style" isn't to get your weak opponents to fold...it's to get them to pay you off when you have the best of it.

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We are ceretainly niytpicking here but I disagree. I think winning pots is emphasized far more than building pots. I also think that both our statements are accurate my advice in this thread was slightly better at breaking a Lee Jones mindset.

SSH certainly stresses betting for value and being able to recognize all the situations in which you have the best of it but IMO the focus is primarily attacking pots agrressively. There usually is enough money in the pot on the flop to make it worth winning right then and there. If you win a big pot on the flop great, if they don't fold they contribute to a pot disproportionately to what they expect to win. Either way you win. Building pots when you have the best of it does not necessarily assume your opponents are making a mistake by playing with you. SSH focuses on making your opponents make mistakes by folding when they should call or raise and by calling or raising when they should fold. Opponents making mistakes is how we make our $$.

[Derek in NYC]

Dont get me wrong, SSH is a great book. It has changed my play for the better. That said, SSH is also vastly misapplied by many who use it as justification to three-bet the flop on a missed AK against a large field, etc. Understanding the weak-tight cautionary analysis of WLLH/MLH is a key to regulating the aggression that SSH recommends.

[McGahee]

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A friend who plays Holdem for a living came over last night and sat with me while I played a table on the internet. In 20 minutes he identified 6BB I had missed out on due to defensive play postflop when other players raised into me. The underlining theme of WLLH is to play tight, (good) and defensively (bad). He might say to jam a pot with a flush draw but his overall teaching strategy is to be defensive and passive in the face of aggression. That lesson stuck deep. Hopefully I am on the way to unlearning it.

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Just as SSH apologists will say its critics paint to broad of a brush and misapply its concepts, one could argue you're doing to same to Jones. There is a time to be aggressive, but unless you're playing in a huge pot with 4+ people (which doesn't happen nearly as often as Jones or Miller say it does IMO, at least not online) it's ok to slow down and play defense against a typical low-limit passive player who shows aggression, unless you have a maniac read on him.

I regret that I don't have WLLH in front of me, but I'm also positive that Jones DOES make mention of backdoor draws when you have overcards that miss the flop, contrary to what you indicate.

FYI - I'm not a Lee Jones apologists. I agree it's a little weak post-flop, but I think it provides a solid foundation. SSH hasn't sunk in on me yet, but it has helped me slow-play less and raise more on the flop. I just have to keep reminding myself that the typical pots I play in online are not as enormous as Miller and Jones say they are. Perhaps I'm just an idiot for playing at UB, but I've won $300 there at the .5/1 tables compared to -$400 at Party, so, I don't know. In any case, I've heard Party has tightened up as well. I think the fact that so many people love J,10 is proof that Jones' book has been read by more micro opponents than you probably think, which is not a good thing as far as pre-flop play is concerned.

[adsman]

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There is a time to be aggressive, but unless you're playing in a huge pot with 4+ people (which doesn't happen nearly as often as Jones or Miller say it does IMO, at least not online)

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I agree, online it doesn't happen as much as you would like. But Miller teaches you to isolate and attack weak and confused players. Jones teaches you to be a weak and confused player. His advice on stealing the blinds is to be wary, as a heads up encounter "...is hand to hand combat not for poker novices..."

The more I reread the more I sigh.

[Joe B.]

I think ITH is the best beginner book.

the book explains preflop and post flop more better than WLLH

[McGahee]

By the way - how can I find that 2003 thread you mentioned where Miller "takes it to Jones", have a link? I'd like to read it. Couldn't find anything via search.

[maurile]

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Jones teaches you to be a weak and confused player.

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LOL. I don't know anyone who became a worse player by reading Lee Jones's book. There are some legitimate criticisms of it, but to say it teaches people to be weak and confused is going way overboard.