Easy Preflop Decision aka I'm smarter than my friend

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
The only time that the number of limpers determines my action is if the number of limpers is three, four, five, six, or seven, in which cases my play is always the same, I call. If there are no limpers, or one limper, or two limpers, I call sometimes and raise sometimes, and the decision never hinges on the size of the pot.

"Isn't that using preflop calling odds?"

You tell me. Is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say so. I think of preflop calling odds in terms of a clear cut decision whether you will continue with the hand past the flop based on the flop. Bascially, you are getting the proper odds to try and flop a set in the 22 example when there are three or more limpers to you. you are getting the right preflop odds.

I just am not sure what the difference between that and the BB example above where you are getting the proper odds to flop 2 pair, flush draw, trips, etc? Otherwise you fold on the flop.

[3rdCheckRaise]

I will call 100% of the time in that spot if i would close the action with my call. In this case UTG is yet to act so this is not all that clear. If he likes to limp reraise i would probably fold.

[Rick Nebiolo]

I voted fold but with one more (and sometimes with one less) caller against default opponents I'd call.

Tommy makes interesting points but if there is any area I think he is certifiably insane it is regarding blind play in multi-way pots. At some point just the fact you are suited and marginally connected makes it a call given enough opponents.

BTW, still love this forum, just have been to busy to post much [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Snoogins47]

You can think Tommy is insane all you want, but this time I think he's definitely on to something.

There is no true "odds" preflop in hold'em in that sense, unless you're all in, in which case you're getting X to 1 that you're going to win the hand against Y opponents. This is simple enough to see.

The immediate pot odds aren't a primary concern, because of all the room to maneuver post flop. To answer Tommy's question, you would have to say something along the lines of "I'm getting 9.5 to 1 odds that I will improve on the flop to something that will make me able to play after the flop with a positive expectation" I guess, to come anywhere near the right track, which is still a pretty vague statement.

In short, the absolute size of the pot only comes about due to previous actions of players: and those previous player actions will give you an infinitely clearer idea of what hands you can/can't play profitably than just saying "oh, that's a big pot I can get in for 2 bets." Though I'm running late and don't have time to try to come up with an example, I think it would be quite feasible to come up with situations where the expressed "odds" preflop, and the cards you hold, are exactly the same, and yet one likely should be called, and one likely should be folded.

Regardless of all this, seeing a flop with cards like these looks attractive in a situation like this... not merely because of the previous action, but also due to the size of the pot. A combination of having the "itty bitty" suited cards that I love so much, and my being cocky enough to think that I'm the best postflop player at any table I sit at, makes me think this is an easy call.

Somebody less arrogant might easily have a fold here.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
"48d is a bad hand, and the BB is bad position. But you're honestly saying that if UTG raised and everyone cold-called, you'd lay it down simply because it fits your "bad hand, bad position" criterion?"

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look everyone! Tommy doesn't play how you should play. Of course you should call here, but Tommy doesn't. So what? That's his style, it works for him. Everyone else would call. Let's move on.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Is "wagering that the money put in the pot with your hand will show a positive expectation long-term" considered to be an "event?"

[/ QUOTE ]

The event is the flop. I like your logic with regards to odds and an event. The difference I see here Tommy is having to re-evaluate every street/event and partially considering the odds on it in your decision. You imply it doesn't happen that way in poker.

[stoxtrader]

I'm sorry i missed this.

this call is very easy. as in super easy.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
"48d is a bad hand, and the BB is bad position. But you're honestly saying that if UTG raised and everyone cold-called, you'd lay it down simply because it fits your "bad hand, bad position" criterion?"

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]


And if Sklansky saw you playing that way, and decided to test you resolve, he tossed in 14 neon fusia and camomile scented chips- each one representing an amount that you could haggle with him over later- would you still fold?

[Trainwreck]

You have to pay 20 with odds to call to see the flop with almost anything, 84s being a tad better than 72o but not by much, but still a call.

I've only recently woken up to this fact myself, SB wise I'd fold it.

>TW<

[jluker7]

This call is easy. 9.5-1 in the BB, thats a great day in the neighbor hood. Anyone who doesnt like this is just asking for way to much. Its not like u can make much a hand to continue with unless the flop hits u anyways.

And besides learn how to play bad hands out of position. It isn't that difficult.