Annoying hand I lost

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Without the knowledge of how the hand eventually played out, how good are you really going to feel if an ace or king comes on the turn, especially if it's a spade? With that flop and subsequent betting action by TWO opponents, it's entirely possible that Vehn is drawing to three jacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming he is drawing to a lone 3 jacks (pretty dang rare), he's still getting 12-1 immediate odds to call one more small bet. Folding here is out of the question.

[mike l.]

"Why don't I just check fold every time I don't flop top pair or an over pair and then feed my kids from my winnings that way?"

why dont you just generalise and simplify whenever somebody makes a legitimate criticism of the way you played a hand, since clearly you want to play exactly has you did anyways, logic be damned?

[mike l.]

"Gabe noted many times that he does better in Vegas than LA because the locals fold WAY too much. This is an excellent example."

it's only because im now making some of those absurdly weak tight folds against the loose passive freaks i play against down here that im cutting my variance down by miles and making so so so much more dough.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
"Why don't I just check fold every time I don't flop top pair or an over pair and then feed my kids from my winnings that way?"

why dont you just generalise and simplify whenever somebody makes a legitimate criticism of the way you played a hand, since clearly you want to play exactly has you did anyways, logic be damned?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because folding in this spot is so absurd, it really doesn't deserve a lot of time arguing against it.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

it's only because im now making some of those absurdly weak tight folds against the loose passive freaks i play against down here that im cutting my variance down by miles and making so so so much more dough.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know, mike, I think I finally figured out why you're not a great player. Lack of balance.

Based on your posts (which may or may not reflect the reality of your play all that much), it seems as if you go through these drastic swings in your style of play. For example, you're playing a little fast and loose. After a while, you realize you're getting a little too maniacal and make a couple of reasonable folds. And you realize you're making more money. So you make some more laydowns. And the next thing you know, you're thinking about folding the second nuts when someone re-raises you once in a huge pot. Soon, you're not making as much anymore. So, you open things up again. And next thing you know, it's crazy action time.

Contrast this w/ something Tommy posted recently. He said something to the effect of "no matter what style I play, I end up making pretty much the same." You know why? Balance. Sure, sometimes Tommy gets a little more aggressive in spots, but he also gets a little tighter (or switches up something else in another area) when he's doing that. Other times, he goes a little passive, but then he can play a few more hands and maybe bluff a little more (or any corresponding adjustment) since all he's showing down is the best hand. Balance.

Perhaps something to consider.

[Roy Hobbs]

This hand has generated a lot of vitriol for such a routine hand. Are you annoyed at his call or your call or the whims of fate?

RH

[Vehn]

Most of my posts do that though.

Frankly I'm annoyed at the river call I guess. I hate paying off poor, weak players. Now obviously you can say "well he played the hand terribly" but did he? He got one more BB than he probably would have got if he bet the turn. Obviously if he bets the turn I have to fold. Then again maybe the late player would call the turn (and usually would in this situation). I dunno, I want my $30 back.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

it's only because im now making some of those absurdly weak tight folds against the loose passive freaks i play against down here that im cutting my variance down by miles and making so so so much more dough.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know, mike, I think I finally figured out why you're not a great player. Lack of balance.

Based on your posts (which may or may not reflect the reality of your play all that much), it seems as if you go through these drastic swings in your style of play. For example, you're playing a little fast and loose. After a while, you realize you're getting a little too maniacal and make a couple of reasonable folds. And you realize you're making more money. So you make some more laydowns. And the next thing you know, you're thinking about folding the second nuts when someone re-raises you once in a huge pot. Soon, you're not making as much anymore. So, you open things up again. And next thing you know, it's crazy action time.

Contrast this w/ something Tommy posted recently. He said something to the effect of "no matter what style I play, I end up making pretty much the same." You know why? Balance. Sure, sometimes Tommy gets a little more aggressive in spots, but he also gets a little tighter (or switches up something else in another area) when he's doing that. Other times, he goes a little passive, but then he can play a few more hands and maybe bluff a little more (or any corresponding adjustment) since all he's showing down is the best hand. Balance.

Perhaps something to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100% and have told mike this several times. He has no "default" game to fall back on. So he is constantly in flux, constantly searching, and when that is the case, its tough to know what is working best as you start confusing short term variance with long-term expectation.

[BigBiceps]

I like your pre-flop and turn plays.
I dislike your flop and river plays.

On the flop I prefer either check-fold, bet fold or 3-bet it! Cold calling a raise with a gutshot out of position ... I do not think is wise. I do not value the overcards that greatly since if he has Q-T they are not much value.

On the river I prefer both check-fold and check-raise to check-call. Check-fold saves a bet since you are likely beat. Check raise might win it for you if he has KQ or QJ since your preflop raise could have been on AQ, AA, KK,TT and you just missed a turn check-raise. Well maybe my logic fails, because most people don't go for a river check-raise after missing a turn check-raise.

I don't know!

For the other guy who was sitting next to the smelly guy, you could bring a bottle of Febreeze and say you stink and spray it on him. Let me know if they call the floorman over.

[SinCityGuy]

Clarkmeister,

I did some thinking on this one, and now it's clear that I was wrong. He does have odds to call the flop raise.

Instead of the turn getting checked around, let's say the guy who had Q9 bets the turn and is cold-called by the other player. Would you fold then?