AK fold...but the flop was so pretty - Page 3

bigt439 · #21 07-07-2005, 05:58 PM

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

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Boo this push. You're better than that.

Slim Pickens · #22 07-07-2005, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

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Boo this push. You're better than that.

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Screw that. Nice push.

tminus · #23 07-07-2005, 06:58 PM

I think youre being passive here man, reraise preflop

That flop is as pretty as a dogs prick (what?) but the good news is that its that ugly for him too so bet half the pot and fold if he reraises. Taking this initiative may win the hand in two ways (1) by him gettin ascared and folding (2) by him calling and then getting your miracle card.

but dont ever ever EVER EVEEEEERRR check fold...

seriously, you have a 10% chance of hitting that beloved straight on the turn...

gildwulf · #24 07-07-2005, 07:35 PM

I just posted this hand to get a rise out of you guys

Thanks for the input

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo this push. You're better than that.

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Screw that. Nice push.

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gildwulf · #25 07-07-2005, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo this push. You're better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suck with AK.

Slim Pickens · #26 07-07-2005, 08:18 PM

Serious about this... if I remember Sklansky's argument correctly it goes something like this. With less than about 20BB in your stack, if you go all-in holding AK and get called by anything that's not AA or KK you're coming out ahead on average. Even against KK you have a not insignificant number of outs. Only against AA are you really in trouble. Just the fact that you hold one A and one K cuts in half the number of hands your opponent could have that are AA or KK (which is why the same "push" argument can't be made for AQ), so you will always have correct odds to make this move. It is probably a -cEV move, but cEV~=$EV in a tournament.

I've been jamming AKo in the early rounds pretty much every time I've been in pot but not first in, and I can't think of when it hasn't paid off.

SlimP

bluewilde · #27 07-07-2005, 08:24 PM

Well it's that embarassing time to betray my ignorance (granted I think we're well past that point by now).

After the strong arguments for pushing preflop with the first hand, why is the push in the second so atrocious? I see the differences (position, multiple limpers v. heads up and a raise etc.) but don't understand why they change your line. Can someone walk me through this...with small words and pictures...maybe a whiteboard...sock puppets perhaps?

gildwulf · #28 07-07-2005, 08:26 PM

I agree...I posted this hand in a facetious attempt to ask this exact question. (Edit: and get a rise out of you guys).

gildwulf · #29 07-07-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Serious about this... if I remember Sklansky's argument correctly it goes something like this. With less than about 20BB in your stack, if you go all-in holding AK and get called by anything that's not AA or KK you're coming out ahead on average. Even against KK you have a not insignificant number of outs. Only against AA are you really in trouble. Just the fact that you hold one A and one K cuts in half the number of hands your opponent could have that are AA or KK (which is why the same "push" argument can't be made for AQ), so you will always have correct odds to make this move. It is probably a -cEV move, but cEV~=$EV in a tournament.

I've been jamming AKo in the early rounds pretty much every time I've been in pot but not first in, and I can't think of when it hasn't paid off.

SlimP

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Does this account for the lost chips if you had raised like, say, 100 and people called and you pushed any flop?

lastchance · #30 07-07-2005, 08:31 PM

Umm... There's only so little in the pot? T70 in the pot is not worth moving in t800. If it was L3, there'd be t225 in the pot, where I would be all for pushing.

And people advocating pushing the first hand are insane. Raising is good, pushing is terrible. I raise both to t100 and go from there.