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#21
11-23-2005, 01:43 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
You do not make money at NLHE by slowplaying these hands. [/ QUOTE ] i wasnt advocating slowplaying all the streets - i think that just calling the flop is fine, then waking up on the turn and river. 
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#22
11-23-2005, 02:34 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] so you are advising to check the turn as well? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] That strikes me as a worse EV play than Checking the Turn and Potting the River. [/ QUOTE ] Yes [/ QUOTE ] With the short stack that each villain has, a $2 bet on the turn gives each one the odds to call almost with any draw as well as pot committing them to call an all-in with any marginal hand on the river.
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#25
11-23-2005, 04:54 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
With the short stack that each villain has, a $2 bet on the turn gives each one the odds to call almost with any draw as well as pot committing them to call an all-in with any marginal hand on the river. [/ QUOTE ] You're on the right track. But your opponent does not necessarily hold a draw. If they have nothing, by betting them out rather than let them catch up and make a hand you're losing the equity from them reading you for a bluff on the River (remember, you do not show any aggression pre-river) and calling your Pot bet. Not to mention when they bet themselves when they think their two pair is best and then pot committed to calling your raise rather than check-call/folding if you take the lead on the Turn. If they make their draw on a free River, the shorties will probably go all-in over the top anyway rather than merely call the Pot bet.
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#26
11-23-2005, 05:00 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
The number one reason to not slowplay is that you should be trying to build a pot early on. [/ QUOTE ] The number one reason to slowplay is that you will get more action later on.
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#27
11-23-2005, 05:04 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] With the short stack that each villain has, a $2 bet on the turn gives each one the odds to call almost with any draw as well as pot committing them to call an all-in with any marginal hand on the river. [/ QUOTE ] You're on the right track. But your opponent does not necessarily hold a draw. If they have nothing, by betting them out rather than let them catch up and make a hand you're losing the equity from them reading you for a bluff on the River (remember, you do not show any aggression pre-river) and calling your Pot bet. Not to mention when they bet themselves when they think their two pair is best and then pot committed to calling your raise rather than check-call/folding if you take the lead on the Turn. If they make their draw on a free River, the shorties will probably go all-in over the top anyway rather than merely call the Pot bet. [/ QUOTE ] If they don't have a draw then what river card could possibly wake them up? Also, in regard to your pot building thoughts. If stacks were 200bb deep, you think you can extract more $$$$$ from villian by checking to the river then by building a a pot on the flop and turn [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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#28
11-23-2005, 05:14 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The number one reason to not slowplay is that you should be trying to build a pot early on. [/ QUOTE ] The number one reason to slowplay is that you will get more action later on. [/ QUOTE ] This is so wrong. You want to build a pot. You will only get paid off later if a) villain completes draw and b) villain is dumb enough not to realize you slowplayed a hand better than his completed draw. You have to get the money in at some point. I don't think anyone is advocating making PSB, but you have to build a pot. Making a 1/3 pot bet on the flop and/or turn is usually a very good way to go about doing this. Give the illusion that you are trying to protect a hand against whatever draw you are going up against. Checking to the river and trying to get into a raising war or trying to trap an idiot is not the best way to build a pot IMO.
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#29
11-23-2005, 05:16 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
This is definately the case in 1) limit games and 2) tournaments, where in case 1, the size of the bet increases no matter what's in the pot and in case 2, where trying to bust other people is very important.
However, in no-limit and pot-limit games, the size of the bet that you can make is directly related to the size of the pot (in no-limit this is not a rule of the game but is still a function of pot odds that you are laying your opponent). Consider this example: I have AA in the SB and decide to complete so my opponent doesn't fold immediately. The pot is now 2BB. If I somehow am lucky enough that my opponent flops top pair and calls pot sized bets all the way down, the final pot will be (2 + 4 + 8 + 16) = 30BB. However, if I simply raised it to 3BB preflop, I can now get a potential pot size of (6 + 12 + 24 + 48) = 90BB. Simply by betting 3BB preflop, I have increased the size of the final pot 3-fold! The same kind of thinking happens on every street. If you check through on a street instead of betting where you could have increased the pot, you will cut the size of the final pot by some factor x (usually 2). So to be able to profit from a slowplay like this, you have to be positive that your opponent will 1) pay you off with a hand that is worse than yours (which is not an unreasonable assumption if he improves) 2) improve enough to pay off SUBSANTIALLY more but still not enough to beat you (this is the unlikely part). -Doom
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#30
11-23-2005, 05:24 PM
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Re: reasons not to slowplay flopped nuts #37
[ QUOTE ]
If they don't have a draw then what river card could possibly wake them up? Also, in regard to your pot building thoughts. If stacks were 200bb deep, you think you can extract more $$$$$ from villian by checking to the river then by building a a pot on the flop and turn [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Any card. If it's higher than 9, it will make someone top two pair. If it's lower than 9, it will make a lower Full House. The only hands you're afraid of are AA-TT but that's only about 7% of their range. How many players at $25 tables fold to a pot sized bet on the River from someone who did not show any aggression pre-River with two pair or better?? No. Only a moron would play the same way with 200BB as with 100BB (or 40BB, as in this particular case).
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