ATo preflop - I have no idea

[Rev. Good Will]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember a lot of discussion about wether to raise of limp hands like ATo KQo and KJo from EP. Especially I remember some excellent posts from GrunchCan arguing a preflop raise with these hands. Unfortunately it seems that I'm not intelligent enough to find these posts using the fantastic search function, maybe some of you guys remember these posts as well? When I put what I remember together with the fact that this game is 8-handed, I'm voting for a raise with this PF. Could you please tell me why we don't want to raise PF here?

Edited to say that I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'd just really like to know why it's wrong to raise this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few months ago, I asked Grunchcan the same thing. What Grunchcan was talking about its essential to open-raise or fold OS broadway cards PF to (I believe) discourage a multiway pot(somebody check me on that?)

I suppose I would have no problem raising in hero's spot if UTG was a notably bad player, and the only possiblity of a CC to my raise are from donks with much worse hands.

aha sorry i shouldnt even have posted the postflop action, its my fault so im not going to criticise anyone for ignoring the 'preflop only' part. postflop i was multitabling and watching a movie on a 17inch screen lol.... my bad again, i just didnt think the postflop action was debatable, looking back i see some good arguments for actually continuing

i was really interested though in preflop action because lately ATo in EP and MP im having a lot of trouble with, particularly when limpers are involved.... not that im losing money, but im just guessing at the correct play, raising calling or folding based on how tilted i am

the answers so far for what i should do preflop are...

Raise preflop
Raise/call preflop
Call preflop
Raise/fold preflop
Fold preflop
Call preflop
Raise/fold preflop
Call/fold preflop
Call preflop

so

Raise: 4
Call: 5
Fold: 4


aiyahh........ =(


i would really appreciate anyone that argued a certain way in terms of preflop giving reasons why.

Raise:

Pros: Takes control through dialogue and improving position, especially if the table is on average w/t postflop.
Discourages multiway action in general, where ATo is very weak (slippery slope); also can fold better hands such as AJo, which would otherwise have us dominated
Pushes equity edge against a random field.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

115,430 games 13.907 secs 8,300 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 17.0293 % 15.72% 01.31% { ATo }
Hand 2: 12.0003 % 10.95% 01.06% { random }
Hand 3: 11.9042 % 10.84% 01.06% { random }
Hand 4: 11.8424 % 10.79% 01.05% { random }
Hand 5: 11.8327 % 10.79% 01.05% { random }
Hand 6: 11.6752 % 10.65% 01.03% { random }
Hand 7: 11.8117 % 10.74% 01.07% { random }
Hand 8: 11.9046 % 10.83% 01.07% { random }

Cons: im not even sure if there is enough equity to push, considering anyone that coldcalls us almost certainly has a better hand and now has position on us postflop.
Wasting 2BB instead of 1BB to see a flop, if reraised we waste 3

Call:
Pros: A decent hand with some high card value, why not see a flop?
Avoids the postflop expectation cut ala SSHE pg. 88; it doesnt tie your hand to the pot and you can escape easily a bad flop without losing anything in metagame

Cons: This hand falls apart multiway and 2 limpers is totally encouraging further limpers as fish school behind us, if we hit a lone ace our kicker will most likely not hold up
Loses that very thin equity edge discussed earlier.

Fold:
Pros+Cons: Perfectly zero expectation. If both earlier plays are longrun -ev then folding is correct.

thanks for having a look mvoss, i unfortunately havent seen the posts you mean =(

i think its worthwhile putting KJo in this boat as well, to me KTo is a clear fold and KQo a clear raise

btw, im not gonna keep counting the 'votes', but i think it looks about 7 a piece now for preflop action haha

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I would put us at 3 outs, any ace. I don't count those backdoor thingies as outs, but our equity would be somewhat like 15-18% so a call would be ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

and no offense heaven but this is pretty bad. if you have SSHE then re-read the outs section, or do a search for: overcard outs, reverse domination, or backdoor draws

[@bsolute_luck]

it's still funny how much discussion preflop gets especially on this particular hand when there are gounds for all 3 actions and when no table conditions or reads are given in the OP. and to criticize anyone for any of these actions should probably not be done. i've done all 3.

the flop is borderline as it gets and again you have cases for calling and folding. given that you hold A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and not the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], i could make the loose call on the flop and i don't think folding is bad, but it is very close simply because you could be reverse dominated if you hit your Ace, so i give you .5 for a goofy straight, 1.5 for BDFD, and 1.5 for your Aces: 3.5 outs which needs ~13 and you're getting 11. you have 2 ppl in, so it is possible, but uber sketchy. personally i like the fold.

[Coolidge]

Not arguing, just curious why raising ATo is so terrible?

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Not arguing, just curious why raising ATo is so terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not. people are just voicing their personal opinions seemingly without consideration of anything but the 2 cards in front of them.

[hemstock]

Don't raise this from UTG. Maybe in higher limits.
NH.

[stlip]

With no reads I'm OK with a limp call here. I don't like raising an unknown UTG when I could well end up playing HU with the worse hand. A limp call gives a lot of weak hands a reason to call behind and make it a big profitable multiway pot.

MP1's raise and bet when everyone checks leaves us with a wide range of beatable hands that he could be on. Closing the action there is every reason to take these pot odds with our backdoor draws and the possibility that a pair of As or even a pair of Ts could be good enough to win this pot.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't raise this from UTG. Maybe in higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

In higher limits? Wouldn't this basically result in stealing the blinds or being dominated?

To OP: I'd rather not play ATo from EP with no reads because I don't like not knowing where I am when I flop a pair, though limping's probably borderline in micros.

EDIT: You're right that KJo is in a similar spot; the top pair always makes 3rd best kicker, the bottom pair is always vulnerable to exactly two overcards, though KJo has better straight potential (and less vulnerable to reverse domination) while ATo can make top pair with no overcards possible. KQo on the other hand is a lot better because it's top pairs are both TP2K and only the A can come to make an overpair. I'm glad you mentioned this because for some reason I was under the impression that KJo is "much" better than ATo but now that I think about it they're probably close to the same; I may start folding KJo more often when I'm new to the table.

If you thought the ATo was worth playing, I think it would have been worth the price to raise it from EP and call the reraise if MP1 goes over the top. If MP1 reraises pre-flop and raises on the flop (assuming you check), then I'd be more sure that the villain has an overpair (or at least hit the top pair).

It might cost you two more bets (the raise and call of a reraise) to gain this information, but in the long run, it might be worth it. Otherwise, it just looks like this op could run over the table with anything.

Given the way the hand played out, the fold on the flop was a good play.