How many people do you want in when you have AA,KK?

[DeeJ]

From UTG+1 I got AA in the first hand in a cheap online tourney. I pushed and got 2 callers - chance to triple up!

AA vs TT vs AQs. The AQs hit his flush and he wins, I'm out. But I was a 71% favorite.....

[ggbman]

A little but later today when i have time i am going to run some simulations on two dimes to see if what i'm thinking is correct here., because i have an inclind that as more people get in the pot with suited connectors etc, i really believe your equity falls over a situation where you and 2 others see the flop and your up against TT and AQ. I will run some data lata and post it and we can conclude if i'm an idiot or if people are really making oversights here. Also, somehow this thread got hijacked into the AA preflop thread, whereas KK poses a much more interesting situation IMO because you definitly don't want everyone in since somone having an ace kills your equity by a large degree. I haven't seem any comments on this.

[shmahappens]

Did you say meow?

[LarsVegas]

I think my dream preflop action with the hands are:

AA for four bets vs two players.

KK for with me three-betting vs four players.

My reasoning is:

Two opponents with AA allows me to play it strong and very profitably post-flop, without running a very risk of being trapped for several bets the worse hand myself. I can safely do things such as smooth-calling flop raises and popping the turn, value-betting most rivers etc without it being close at all.

With KK, I want to avoid the Ace even against only one player (even though it will often hold up). Against two, the Ace will usually kill me. And no matter what number of opponents, I can't give any real action with the Ace. I might as well get in four players, of which often two players are pinning much of their hopes of their hand on hitting that Ace. I want that Ace-Eight suited in there with Ace-Jack offsuit.

Also note that my dream scenario for KK doesn't include four bets preflop. Sure, I even cap Queens usually when it's 3-bet to me, and even though I am ahead very very often with KK for four bets too, I am up against AA or a 3-to-2 favourite over AKs far too often to make that my DREAM scenario.

lars

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my dream preflop action with the hands are:

AA for four bets vs two players.

KK for with me three-betting vs four players.



[/ QUOTE ]

Let me say it one more time slowly: Y o u w a n t e v e r y b o d y i n w i t h A A a n d w i t h K K ! ! ! ! !

This is my last post in this thread - that by the way has turned into a good argument for the division of this forum.

[LarsVegas]

Let me say it one more time slowly: Y o u w a n t e v e r y b o d y i n w i t h A A a n d w i t h K K ! ! ! ! !

It's not that simple Rigoletto. Unless you are a highly skilled player that are capable of making very correct laydowns, checks with position on the turn etc etc, I think AA is much easier played for all players vs 2 opponents instead of 7 or 8, and for most of these, I think AA have significant better postflop EV vs 2 opponents rather than 7-8. There is also the very important "schooling" principle. When my opponent raises his strong flop holding but 2- or 5-outer vs my hand on the flop and I raise back on the turn, with him still drawing to either a 22-to-1 or 8-to-1 shot, he is making a SIGNIFICANT mistake.

In a 7 or 8 way pot with other players drawing to other 4- 5-, 8- or 9-outers, this is not nearly the same issue. Besides, whatever value there might be in the turn action, might be someone elses because I'm no longer ahead .

Lars

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think my dream preflop action with the hands are:

AA for four bets vs two players.

KK for with me three-betting vs four players.



[/ QUOTE ]

Let me say it one more time slowly: Y o u w a n t e v e r y b o d y i n w i t h A A a n d w i t h K K ! ! ! ! !

This is my last post in this thread - that by the way has turned into a good argument for the division of this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, i ahve run a simulation, and i think the evidence pretty conclusivley says that you are wrong. Go to any any poker simulator you want and run these simulations:

Sim 1:
AA vs.

AQo
TT

Sim 2:
AA vs. Aqo
TT
67s

After you computer how much your equity decreases by adding the third hand. you will find that simulation 1, where lesss people are in the hand, makes you slightly more money in the long run. This does not even take into account the fact that you will save lots of bets when the 67 suited hits a 66K flop, which is also not that insignificant. Given that you don't even have to take into account postflop play to make my argument correct though, i don't see how you can maintain the argument that you want everyone in with AA.

[DeeJ]

I checked the numbers at twodimes and the worst hand won. AQs needs to hit the flush, a straight or two queens to win and the straight is harder than normal because 2 of the cards needed (tens) are out already. AQs was 9% to win the pot, TT was 19% (basically needs to hit one of the 2 tens) and I was 71%.

I was happy with my decision because with a triple-sized stack I could bully the table somewhat, and the push-with-Aces would be scary in future. And it was a cheap tourney so I didn't mind losing too much. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, i ahve run a simulation, and i think the evidence pretty conclusivley says that you are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your simulation doesn't prove what you claim it does. You found one case where the presence of a fourth hand lowers your EV very slightly. Fine. That doesn't show that IN GENERAL, you want fewer players. It only shows that, given some specific opponents' hands, adding 76s doesn't really help you any.

What if we added KQo instead of 76s? Then our EV takes a big jump upwards. Basically, you found one play where the results are very slightly worse with another player, and then assumed that outweighs a lot of other situations where the fourth player is not only better for AA, but much better.

Technically, it's not even true that your equity goes down either. Try

Ah As
Ac Qh
Th Tc

and add 6h 7h.

For completeness, I do think I read somewhere that there's a slight drop in EV between the eighth and ninth opponents.

[pokerjo22]

[ QUOTE ]
whereas KK poses a much more interesting situation IMO because you definitly don't want everyone in since somone having an ace kills your equity by a large degree. I haven't seem any comments on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because you fold when an A flops. And you still want everyone in.

This whole thread belongs in either Poker Theory or Micro-Limits.