Atrocities That Pass in Silence

[MMMMMM]

Well you yourself said presumably not too many doorbell-ringers are shot, or the IDF wouldn't use the tactic. So instead of guessing (or second-guessing) motives, why not just acknowledge it as a tactic that seems to be saving lives.

War crimes are what the terrorists do in the first place to necessitate Israelis going in to arrest or kill them. And the tactic doesn't seem to be costing lives--as opposed to Palestinian tactics which frequently do cost lives--so again you are criticizing the less evil side, the side that employs the less evil tactics.

[elwoodblues]

Part of the reason that I am more prone to criticize Israel than the Palestinians is that Israel is one of our allies. I think we should hold ourselves and our allies to a higher standard - after all, part of the reason that they are our allies is that they don't (or shouldn't) behave like terrorists.

[MMMMMM]

True, but especially when the two sides are in direct conflict, I think criticism should be apportioned in accordance with deservedness. During times of non-conflict I would move somewhat more towards your position.

[elwoodblues]

I understand that position. Part of the strength of our position should come from the fact that even when faced with difficult situations we still hold true to our ideals. This mindset flows through our bill of rights. It is very easy, for example, to allow free speech when we agree with the speech; easy to give Due Process to non-criminals (and even minor criminals), it is hard to do so when holding up to your ideals might result in allowing some sick f*ck criminal to go free.

Ultimately, I think it is largely and ends/means discussion (though the "ends" are highly debatable as well). Personally, I usually require the means to trump. Many hold the belief that where the ends are great enough then the ends should trump the means (e.g. encroach on a small amount of everyone's civil rights to fight the great end of eradicating terrorism).

[MMMMMM]

I agree insofar as it can be done without accruing serious disadvantage to us or our allies. The other side, however, has no such compunctions and I would be loath to allow them to benefit from a double-standard which they introduced and to which we acceded due to our higher moral compass. They already have an advantage due to their lesser respect for human life and human rights; I don't think we should magnify their advantage in that respect by allowing them greater leeway in those arenas. I'm not saying we should lower our own standards; rather, we should call them on the carpet for their violation of standards. Unfortunately, the perfidious U.N. General Assembly is composed primarily of rogue states, tyrannies and theocracies, and as such it usually takes an immoral stance anyway in keeping with the goals of these deplorable regimes...

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
It is useful to remember this incident and compare the dead silence it has elicited from those same human-rights organizations

[/ QUOTE ]
“Amnesty International condemns these murders in the strongest terms.” From the AI press release on the murders issued the day before Ahlert's claim of "dead silence."

Israeli children are murdered after being sent to live in illegal settlements in a violent land -- blame the Palestinians for their despicable depravity.

Many more Palestinian children are murdered in their own land -- blame the Palestinians for putting them in harm's way.

If the PA "expresses regret," scoff at the hypocrisy. If the U.S. does the same, consider the matter closed and unworthy of further "American-bashing" criticism.

If human rights organizations condmen Isreali killings, accuse them of "Israel-bashing." If they condmen Palestinian terror, lie and accuse them of silence.

If Israelis kill civilians randomly, say nothing or reiterate the official excuse. If every major media outlet puts an act of Palestinian terror on the front page, accuse them of "silence."

This is the sort of stuff that B-Man swallows whole, or thinks others are dumb enough to believe.

[Gamblor]

Israeli children are murdered after being sent to live in illegal settlements in a violent land -- blame the Palestinians for their despicable depravity.

Religious Israelis live in towns in Gaza/Aza of their own free will and accord. They see the land of Israel as theirs as equally as anyone else's.

The government does not place new immigrants into the Territories, but does offer incentives - low mortgage rates, for example - to populate the lands in Aza and Yehuda/Shomron. This is quite different from "being sent", as Alger's ridiculous post claims.

It is the Arab refusal to accept a Jew in their homeland that requires a military presence there. That refusal lead to minor attacks on Jews in the areas, which led to more strident defense measures, which lead to more vicious (and depraved) attacks, and so the cycle continues. But it is still the Palestinians that force the Israeli government to enlist military installations to protect the Jews of Aza.

[Gamblor]

One attack, and the US institutes the Patriot Act.

Imagine what it will be like after a 30 year barrage of 9/11s.

[Gamblor]

By all means, discuss the merits and shortfalls of various Israeli policies for dealing with the land issue, peace negotiations, and anti-terror.

But understand a couple things:

1) The Arabs are members of Israeli society, as much as Alger and Cyrus would paint a different picture. Most Israelis have day-to-day interactions with Arab people, just as most Americans have day-to-day interactions with Black people. It's no different. They're just people. It is the outside international community (especially Arab countries) that racializes this conflict. Arabs are members of the Supreme Court, the Parliament, and soccer teams. They're citizens of the state. But it's still a Jewish majority state, and must remain that way to protect the people it was created for.

3) The general Israeli public is less concerned with the politics of the issues, and pretty much only concerned with safety and security. It's all a matter of what it takes to gain this - some believe that the only guarantee of the safety of Jews will be a Jewish-majority state, as a result of a few millenia of being pushed around the globe. Others think that if we give them everything they want, they'll suddenly like us and we'll all be happy. But ultimately, Israeli policy is dictated by the people. And as such, the government must accept the will of the people in order to get re-elected, which is all any government really wants in a democratic state.

4) The most important point: Nobody here has any right to make demands of the Israeli government, and nobody here has the right to demand that the Israeli government take certain actions, as nobody here faces the consquences of those actions. Only the Israelis do, and as such, only the Israelis may take action. If a million Jews in the United States moved to Israel, Israel wouldn't need your tax dollars, and you could complain about something else.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
4) The most important point: Nobody here has any right to make demands of the Israeli government, and nobody here has the right to demand that the Israeli government take certain actions, as nobody here faces the consquences of those actions. Only the Israelis do, and as such, only the Israelis may take action. If a million Jews in the United States moved to Israel, Israel wouldn't need your tax dollars, and you could complain about something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

When my tax dollars are heading Israel's way, I sure as hell want a right to voice my opinion or, as a consequence of not being listened to, tighten up the purse strings.