Question for those who believe in the Biblical God

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
There’s two different issues here, chez. One, those who have not heard “The Word” and those who have heard it and disregard it.

Let’s say for the sake of argument -. Those who have not heard are exempt from punishment. (A whole different theme. Btw, I am not sure - I error on side of free pass.)

Now we are left with those who have heard and by “logic” have chosen to not believe.

So, basically you are saying “I chose not to believe, because MY logic, tells me it is nonsense.” Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.” Then you want to use your own logic to say to God this, “Hey God it is not logical for you to condemn me. You gave me free choice. I chose. I picked black instead of red on the roulette wheel. The ball landed on red. Give me my money back, I was wrong.” Is that in essence what you are saying?

To give you a further scenario, take the possibility that God exists. Then using your science, take the possibility that He started the evolution game rolling with one cell or whatever it is that science says might have started the rock and roll of life. Then think that at some point in evolution He implanted the Soul in us. Does this conflict with science? If so, then chose black. If not then chose red or at least green.

Either way, don’t use logic to say “Hey God, you f…ed me. You gave me free choice. I picked wrong. Give me another shot at it. Now that I have more evidence, I got all my money on red.”

For me, I am Christian. Hopefully, I’ll get to cut in front of the line. For those who don’t have such opportunity in life, I hope God says to them “You done good. You loved your neighbor. You weren’t an a..hole. You were christian to others even though you were not Christian and you didn’t get what My Son, Jesus said. Come in through the back door.” Who the hell knows, what it is all about?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just asking Jeff what he meant. I'm not looking for a second shot, I know as certainly as I know just about anything that a good god won't punish me for not believing in him. You saw the argument, no-one argued and its watertight as far as I am concerned.

chez

[Lestat]

"Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.”"

Maybe what he would say is, "If it was so important to believe, why did you give me no sign?".

What do you think the answer to this question is?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
"Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.”"

Maybe what he would say is, "If it was so important to believe, why did you give me no sign?".

What do you think the answer to this question is?

[/ QUOTE ]

He gave me a sign (assuming he exists). He made me to understand that a god who punished unbelievers is morally repugnant. Hence it can't matter whether people believe or not.

chez

[RJT]

I do know that, chez. And I want credit for editing. Cheers, buddy.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
"Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.”"

Maybe what he would say is, "If it was so important to believe, why did you give me no sign?".

What do you think the answer to this question is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus Christ isn't a bad answer.

[RJT]

Jeff V did a good job with this in some of his posts.

Let me just say it my way, since you asked.

[ QUOTE ]
If a God created the universe, why would he want you to serve or worship him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who told you He wants us to worship him? The language that I learned was “One must do God’s will: One must love God and love one’s neighbor.”

If we chose to worship Him, it is in the context of thanking Him and thanking Him for things such as Life and loved ones, etc. Things like that. He does not command Worship. We choose Worship.

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't he want you to enjoy your life without living for his glory (which is already self-evident if he exists)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says He does not want to us to enjoy life? If He does not want us to go bang every girl that passes by, it is out of consideration for the woman. Are you using her? Or does she enjoy it as much as you. (I have been around enough to believe, that EVERY woman wants the ring. If you believe nothing what I say, believe this: Don’t buy what they say. -Probably only half joking here.) But as far as every day things in life, I think that it what keeps us going. When I go to Niagara Falls for example, I can sit there all day and enjoy it. Sometimes I think, this is from God. If I knew more about science, I would know how it all actually got here - the glaciers and all. But, tracing back to day one, I believe God started the whole shebang. So, I sit there an enjoy life and the world (I believe God started it in one way or another.)

Then there are the days that I curse God for life.

If I had kids, I can’t imagine looking at them and not thanking God for such a gift. Whether He had an immediate direct hand in it when I conceived or whether He started the evolutionary thing going from one cell (or whatever the theory is).

[ QUOTE ]
And why would he want you to be with him for eternity (if you "choose" to believe in him using faith) or not want you to be with him (if you use your faculties and decide that faith is not warranted)?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my big question. Why the heck would He create us? It does not seem logical that He did it out of boredom. We believe He did it out of love and to share His love.

Why do atheist have kids? They want to enjoy these kids and love them. Perhaps they can better answer that question.

If I were atheist, I wouldn’t want to have kids. I would want to go around the world and play poker and drink and have sex with all the different women (like Mick Jaggers’s “Some Girls”) probably end up in Thailand in an opium den smoking all day and having sex with all the Asian women there.

I do know this: If I were atheist, I certainly wouldn’t care about the ozone. I wouldn’t care about future generations and what they will come to know about science. If there is no God, I wouldn’t care how it all got started and if we can figure out one more thing about the key to the universe. My curiosity ends with me. If there is no ultimate clue to it all - if there is no God to try to find clues about - what is the actual prize? Say if one scientist figures out the whole code to the universe - what do you got? You got the manual to the universe. That and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee. Maybe if you can copyright it you become Bill Gates. If that is your goal, go for it.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't mean for you to give me bible lessons, but these are some things I never understood.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can only answer your questions from the Bible. If that isn't what you want, just ignore the following.

[ QUOTE ]

First, save us from what? From sin? Unless you're a saint, don't we all still sin?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, even saints. Actually, the word saint in the New Testament applies to all Christians - it was an identifier, not a word of praise. Read Romans Chapter 7 where Paul describes himself and the fact that he sins daily. In another place he calls himself the chief of sinners. Salvation is deliverance from the guilt of sin even though Christians are not free from committing sin until after death.

[ QUOTE ]

Second, I never understood how or in what context Jesus is the son of God. Isn't the belief that we are all God's children? Yet, I hear of Jesus as being his Only son. I don't understand this.


[/ QUOTE ]

We are all God's creatures and in a sense are therefore His children, but the Bible uses the word children of God for believers because we have been born from above, which is a phrase referring to conversion. Jesus is God's only begotten Son in a special sense because He is also God - He had both a divine nature and a human (sinless) nature. The word Son is also used to describe Him as the second Person of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[ QUOTE ]

Lastly, why did Jesus have to suffer so and die for our sins? If God wanted to save us, why not just save us?


[/ QUOTE ]

God is perfect in all His attributes and none of His attributes are in conflict. He is perfect love, justice, goodness, etc., in all He does. He is perfectly holy, such that the Bible says He cannot even look on sin. This is a figure of speech used to emphasize the serious nature of our sin. The Bible says God will in no way acquit the guilty or convict the innocent. Since all mankind is sinful, this presents a problem. God could sentence us all to condemnation without compromising any of His attributes. Therefore in order to maintain His justice, payment for sin is required. The Son volunteered to be that sacrifice. And God sent Him because of His love for the world. He is therefore just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

[ QUOTE ]

Why do you suppose God likes to test our faith so? Why would he put us on this earth without any logical sign whatsoever of his existence only to send us to eternal hell if we don't believe in him? Explain how that is a loving God.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think God tests us except in certain respects. The kind of test you're talking about is irrelevant if you're not a Christian. As to evidence, there is nothing but evidence and that in overwhelming abundance. Everything that exists testifies of God and His nature. He has spoken to us in His Word. He reveals something of Himself and our sin through our conscience. He tells us of His creativity and artistry in the sublimity of the universe,the beauty of nature, and the good things we receive from Him. He has given us the ability to think, to explore His creation, to understand through science and art. And He sent His Son to perfrom miracles of healing and grace and then to give Himself for our sins.

Paul said to the Greeks in Athens:

Acts 17:
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

We see the evidence when we open our eyes in the morning until we close them at night. But seeing, we do not see, because we "supress the truth in unrighteousness". We "love the darkness rather than the light because our deeds are evil".

[whiskeytown]

I don't have an exact biblical quote answer, per se - but I have something close -

the Bible teaches that God created man for the same reason two people have children. To love and to be loved back - not to do chores or busywork - but to continue on, spend time with, commune, love, etc. etc.

With the downfall of man, the world became a selfish child, but one nevertheless still loved by God. To ask why the child just can't do what it wants and give up is not what the plan was - the plan was that love and communion, and the child cannot survive without the parent.

That's the choice - in the Old testament God would go off on all these wrongs Israel had done and how he was gonna level the place, smite their nation, send them into exile, woe and woe for their being disobedient. Then he does a 180 degree turn and says things like I would forgive you and embrace you if you would just change your mind and return home.

In the book of Hosea, he commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute who would do him wrong several times. This was God saying how he felt with the world - like he was married to an unfaithful prostitute - and in that book, God commanded Hosea to keep forgiving her, just as he does.

That's how I see it, anyways....but many people proably wouldn't care about or understanding my reasoning behind it.

RB

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have an exact biblical quote answer, per se - but I have something close -

the Bible teaches that God created man for the same reason two people have children. To love and to be loved back - not to do chores or busywork - but to continue on, spend time with, commune, love, etc. etc.

With the downfall of man, the world became a selfish child, but one nevertheless still loved by God. To ask why the child just can't do what it wants and give up is not what the plan was - the plan was that love and communion, and the child cannot survive without the parent.

That's the choice - in the Old testament God would go off on all these wrongs Israel had done and how he was gonna level the place, smite their nation, send them into exile, woe and woe for their being disobedient. Then he does a 180 degree turn and says things like I would forgive you and embrace you if you would just change your mind and return home.

In the book of Hosea, he commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute who would do him wrong several times. This was God saying how he felt with the world - like he was married to an unfaithful prostitute - and in that book, God commanded Hosea to keep forgiving her, just as he does.

That's how I see it, anyways....but many people proably wouldn't care about or understanding my reasoning behind it.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

but don't you feel there's something terribly wrong in punishing your otherwise decent kid who doesn't understand the message.

chez

[ QUOTE ]
If I were atheist, I wouldn’t want to have kids. I would want to go around the world and play poker and drink and have sex with all the different women (like Mick Jaggers’s “Some Girls”) probably end up in Thailand in an opium den smoking all day and having sex with all the Asian women there.

I do know this: If I were atheist, I certainly wouldn’t care about the ozone. I wouldn’t care about future generations and what they will come to know about science. If there is no God, I wouldn’t care how it all got started and if we can figure out one more thing about the key to the universe. My curiosity ends with me. If there is no ultimate clue to it all - if there is no God to try to find clues about - what is the actual prize? Say if one scientist figures out the whole code to the universe - what do you got?

[/ QUOTE ]

I read a lot of your posts and think you are generally reasonable, but then statements like the above just prove to me that even an apparently reasonable theist suffers from brainwashing to such an extent that nothing will show them that there is anything interesting or beautiful or mysterious about life and the universe without their personal God construct.