Top 2 on monotone board. Push?

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Because if he bets the pot here, he can't possibly call a push. While I believe pushing here has a very negative expectation because it only gets called by better hands, Ryan does make a valid point in that, if he does infact have the best hand, it keeps him from getting pushed off of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

slow down and think. if EVERY hand that is beating you calls your flop push and you still want to go allin, then you can NOT want to fold when someone pushes over your potsized bet.

[Malachii]

When did I say I wanted to go all in? I was merely pointing out the one potential benefit in Ryan's line. I specifically said I would bet the pot and fold to a push. The problem with this is that someone could push on a bluff or semi bluff. I don't see how Ryan can possibly call that bet. But if he pushes himself, it's impossible for someone to semibluff.

Do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Sephus]

when "you're" pushing the flop, "you're" wanting to go allin.

what i'm saying is that choosing between pushing the flop and potting and folding to a push makes no sense, because potting the flop and then CALLING a push strictly dominates the strategy of simply pushing the flop, for reasons that i've outlined.

do you see why?

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
when "you're" pushing the flop, "you're" wanting to go allin.

what i'm saying is that choosing between pushing the flop and potting and folding to a push makes no sense, because potting the flop and then CALLING a push strictly dominates the strategy of simply pushing the flop, for reasons that i've outlined.

do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sephus, I'm going to decifer this post and point out a few things.

If you pot the flop and then plan to call a push, then a push on the flop is superior. Do you see why? If you're going to knowingly commit your stack, then it's a better play to push out marginal hands now and be first in. This is ABC poker imo, if you know you're goign to call a push, then a push first is the superior play. I think Mal is trying to bring to light what Ryan was thinking, even though he doesn't agree with the play. The problem with giving accurate poker advice in these situations is that it depends so much on reads and table image. I personally wouldn't take this line, but I'm not going to say that it's a BAD play. I think 'slightly' over betting and folding to a push is a better play. Yet let's not get over bloated here and say that we can win tunnel all these hands and know exactely the right play. We can indeed make suggestions though.

Although I understandd the logic behind potting and calling a push, I don't agree with it in this particular situation. If you want to induce the draw to semi-bluff, then that's fine too, but it's not the line I'd take.

[Malachii]

Okay, after carefully rereading your posts, I finally understand what you're advocating.

You're saying that he should bet the pot and then call off the rest of his stack (~$160) if somebody pushes, because you might induce a semi bluff where Hero has 70% equity if he's against the queen of diamonds. If the guy is pushing with a set or a flopped flush and Hero calls off the rest of his money drawing nearly dead, c'est la vie, correct?

[Sephus]

the only point ive tried so laboriously to make is that pushing because you're afraid of being raised and having to fold makes no sense whatsoever (especially in a situation where no better hands can possibly fold).

[Sephus]

whether to call when someone comes over the top is player-dependent.

[dstraff1]

if you like money, pot it