Deep stack theory

[spamuell]

If you know your opponent has AA or KK and won't pay you off if you flop a set, don't bother calling pre-flop. You won't get the implied odds.

If you know they won't pay you off without a set themselves and know they almost certainly have a big pair, wouldn't you want to call so you can push them off their hand if you get a low flop?

I played deep stack NL in a home game the other day and I really wanted to do this, but did not have the balls for fear of a call, either due to a good read or just an unwillingness to lay down a big pair.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
If you know they won't pay you off without a set themselves and know they almost certainly have a big pair, wouldn't you want to call so you can push them off their hand if you get a low flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pure bluffs (as essentially what something like this would be) is rarely advocated because you still want to have some outs if in case your opponent does call. With a pocket pair, if you make a move and wrongly so, you are drawing extremely thin (2 outs). This is weighed and measured by what percentage of the time you feel your opponent will lay down his AA or KK to you. Yes, this takes a lot of balls and ultimately you must play it like you truly have a set and your opponent has to really feel you have a set. It's not easy against good players, but it's even harder against bad players because they are more likely to call you down.

Save the bets for better opporunities imo.

[ZeeJustin]

Don't forget that draws are much much better when you have position. Dont start playing 65s utg or anything in this game.

[SA125]

How do you get experience if you don't play? Moving up against basically the same players and looking for some insight from others who've been there is about the best you can do when you feel you're ready.

Tommy's reply here is exactly what I'd be looking for. Nice. Good luck cj.

[Wayfare]

My point is that moving up to five times the stakes at the same time as radically changing the blind sizes may not be the most prudent way to go about "moving up."

I would venture to guess that a play that you easily made at 1-2 -- i.e. tossing out 25 BB or so on the turn bluff raise -- will become a whole hell of a lot harder when you have to start looking for blacks.

I know I cannot play optimally when the conditions are so different from the ones I am used to.

But what the hell do we know, we are just unhelpful MS/HS posters with huge egos.

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]

But what the hell do we know, we are just unhelpful MS/HS posters with huge egos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you've admitted it, the next step is correcting it. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[edtost]

click on "older archives" on the left - it's after the other topics section. his posts are under high stakes holdem. unfortunately, you'll have to search through manually, but being forced to read the threads from back then isn't exactly a bad thing. if you can find it, i had a post sometime in may with links to a bunch of the more interesting discussions, but i can't seem to find it anymore.

[edtost]

found it - it had made its way into the archives

Must Read Posts/Classics

[ML4L]

Hey cj,

I have a ton to say, but I can't seem to get organized (it's been a while since my last post...). So, I'll just start spewing thoughts and hopefully they'll end up forming a coherent post.

1) Of all the posts, I think that Tommy's is the one that you should really focus on.

2) A number of posters have touched on the fact that one of the most uncomfortable positions that you can be in is to be out of position with your hand defined. If you allow this to happen, your opponents will own you. Let's say you raise up front, and they know you have a big pair. Your opponents can then take advantage in one of two ways. One, if they know that you WILL NOT back an overpair with your stack, they can call with any two cards on the button, call your bet on the flop, bet/raise the turn and represent something better than an overpair, and steal the pot every time. Alternatively, if you WILL back an overpair with your stack, then they have the implied odds to play a TON of hands against your raise, because they know they can get paid off.

3) How to prevent the situation in point 2? VARY YOUR PLAY!!! You must play in such a way that opponents will not be able to narrowly put you on a hand. This means limping up front with big pairs (not recommended) or raising up front with hands such as 66, Axs, and maybe something like 87s occasionally (recommended). It also means playing hands differently postflop, which brings us to...

4) Be ready to check in situations where you're used to betting and calling/folding in situations where you're used to raising. If you are not committed to your hand and are against a player who can push you off of it, don't give him the chance. You might end up giving more free cards, but that's OK. Marginal hands cost too much to bet just for the sake of "protecting them," so don't try.

5) Despite point 4, there is a difference between playing conservatively/wisely and playing passively/scared. If you think you have the best hand and somebody is just taking a shot at you, take a stand with an overpair, regardless of the conventional wisdom of not backing that type of hand. You don't have to have the nuts to play a big pot.

6) Be very cognizant of how much your opponents have in front of them so that you can devise ways to put them to tough decisions. Try to put in bets and raises where their only choice is to fold or make a reraise that will only be called if they are beat. In other words, force them to make a commitment decision while leaving yourself flexibility.

7) Many short-stack NL hands play themselves. The important thing in deep-stack is to think the hand through. If you aren't committed, try to get to showdown cheaply. If you are committed, try to find the best way to get all of the money in.

8) If you adjust properly, AA/KK/AK are NOT worthless out of position. The game doesn't change that dramatically. As posters have noted, position is extra-important with deep stacks because there is still much money to be bet on the turn and the river. But, big hands are still big hands, regardless of position.

I feel like I'm getting repetitive and less insightful, so I think I'll stop. Best of luck...

ML4L

PS I don't believe that Wayfare's initial reply to you was meant to be condescending or meant to degrade your ability. I likely would have said something along those lines as well. I'd rather risk insulting/patronizing a competent player such as yourself than risk not providing a disclaimer to someone who needed to hear it...

[ML4L]

Hey Lawrence,

[ QUOTE ]
Pure bluffs (as essentially what something like this would be) is rarely advocated because you still want to have some outs if in case your opponent does call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is almost correct, but there is a big distinction that needs to be made. See where you misspoke?

ML4L