30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street

[Analyst]

Do you give it up if you're 3-bet on the flop by any of the players?

[skp]

You have 13 bets strange preflop assuming no cap behind you. Conventional wisdom is that you need to believe that you can make another 17 bets postflop to make the preflop call with 66 worthwhile.

I think it's a bad call preflop but I make it all the time 'cause I absolute couldn't stand folding if a 6 happens to hit the flop...heh..the money I will lose on subsequent hands while steaming dwarfs the error made by calling with 66 preflop.

That's just me but I do think that viewed rationally, the 66 preflop call is poor.

I do note Clark's coment that his opponents are looser than normal. I think that this makes calling 3 more bets preflop with 66 a *MORE* dicey proposition. If you knew that your opponents had big pairs or big cards, you would be better off as (a) you could get lots of action if you flop a set and they have big pairs or (b) you are more likely to win the pot even without a set on benign looking flops like the one that came down.

But when you have loose opponents who could have just about anything, your chances of winning on benign looking flops are reduced and you may in fact face serious reverse implied odds beause you now end up paying off some clown on a 832 flop because he 4 bet preflop with 98 offsuit.

Plus, these loose guys are more likely to stick around right up to the river.

The absence of a big pair also garners you less action if you do flop a set.

Overall, I don't like the preflop call but I would make it.

I wouldn't cap preflop as suggested by Nate for the reasons given by Clark. That is, it would be useful to find out if guys behind me have a hand big enough to cap preflop.

On the river, it's not an error either way. Some guys might make a desperation bluff on the river if you check but then again the river card is a horrible one from his perspective as the flush got there and the top card on the flop paired. Plus, if he has Ace high, he is not bluffing but may very well call a river bet on the "it's a big pot" line of thinking.

Overall: I consider the river play to be six of one and half a dozen of the other.

[Ray Zee]

lets see what stage are you in now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

maybe fold before the flop? maybe not. but dont cap as to see if they do. that helps some with later decisions. but also doesnt scare them as much, which always helps in big pots.

flop and turn right on.

river is a must bet. he aint gonna bluff after all that. but who knows what might call you. plus you would rather not show this hand if possible.

stop hanging around with mike you are starting to go nuts.

[Clarkmeister]

Well Ray, the hands where I just call down like Tommy aren't nearly as interesting to post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Here's one from the 40-80 the other day:

Super duper uber passive guy open raises in the CO, I fold on the button with KJs.

Better?

[sthief09]

What kind of control do you have over your opponents? Will you be able to read them for a bigger pair if the flop comes J-high? Will you be able to confidently fold or 3-bet if the flop comes rags? Are they the type to assume their overcards are good (ie will UTG call 2 bets on the flop with KJ, assuming he has 6 outs?). Will you get them to spray when you flop a set and they flop TPGK? I feel like this play is probably close to having set value (needing an extra 4.5 SB by 3 or 4 more bets, so 14 or 18 SB postflop). it reminds me of a close turn call where you have 2 outs to a winner. you don't have to have the best hand all the time, just enough to bridge the gap between the required implied odds for a set and actual assumed implied odds. I'd be lying if I said I completely understood it completely, but hopefully by the time the thread dies I will

the river decision is interesting too. he'll almost certainly call with a hand like A7s, and probably even with KQ. some have said even a LAG won't bet after all that action, but with Q high, I'd imagine it'd be correct, or at least close, to take a stab, with you having to fold under 10% of the time for it to be correct.

[Clarkmeister]

Final board [3h4h8d] Ts 8h. I bet, button raised, I called quickly. Button tabled 5h7h for the flush and the winner.

Talking with mike, I said that I liked the bet because he'd call me with any small pair, but there weren't many of those available. I now think checking to induce was the better play here. I wasn't scared of the flush since I figured he'd have 3-bet the flop or bluff raised the turn with a flush draw, but that just goes to show what I know.......

[Clarkmeister]

"What kind of control do you have over your opponents?"

I don't know how this will answer your question, but UTG was LAG preflop and very very passive postflop (needs TPGK to bet the flop, 2 pair or better to make noise on the turn), and not that loose postflop. MP was what I would call a typical "trying to play well" local semi-pro who kind of knows how to play but is eminently readable. Button was your run of the mill LAG who paid far more attention than others gave him credit for, but was still a LAG nonetheless.

[Tyler Durden]

No joke, this is kinda BS. If anyone else posted that they called 3 cold from the BB w/ 66 they'd be megaflamed just like I'm about to be for posting this. What do you lose by folding your hand? Nothing.

Okay sorry to interrupt the fellating but it had to be said.

[Clarkmeister]

Shouldn't you be in OOT posting something about whether or not you've been laid recently?

[Tyler Durden]

[censored] you're right..carry on then.