Thoughts on free will vs. determinism

[jason1990]

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Now we know that if we can accurately calculate the inputs into the environment we can calculate the output which allows weathermen to predict snow and rain and sushine.

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We don't know this.

[noggindoc]

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Here's the answer fellas. There is no free will. I'll try to explain this as quick as possible. Your brought into this world with your brain being a type of mathmatical processor. It brings in inputs from your environment then creates an output. It's very similar to the weather. Back in the day people thought the weather was "random". Now we know that if we can accurately calculate the inputs into the environment we can calculate the output which allows weathermen to predict snow and rain and sushine. If they could predict every single input for the next 20 years they could tell you what the weather would be like 20 years from now.

If I were to rewind time to the day I was born this is what would happen. I would have the exact same inputs going into my brain so the output would be the same. My brain would NEVER make a different decision. You could rewind it 100 times and my brain would react the same way under the exact same conditions. You would live life the same way every time. This means you are given only 1 path to live life and your death will alway be the same. Therefore your life is predetermined.

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somebody finally got it!

[noggindoc]

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Now we know that if we can accurately calculate the inputs into the environment we can calculate the output which allows weathermen to predict snow and rain and sushine.

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We don't know this.

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True but his analogy still makes sense. He is saying that our illusion of free will amounts to ignorance of all the causes of our behavior. At this point the whole field of psychology is somewhat analagous to meteorology. We can makes predictions, often more accurate than chance alone, but the information used to make the predictions is incomplete. Thus at times the predictions are not completely accurate.

[purnell]

"If I were to rewind time to the day I was born this is what would happen. I would have the exact same inputs going into my brain so the output would be the same. My brain would NEVER make a different decision."
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I can't speak for you, but MY brain is not a computer. It is a human organ, and functions differently depending on how well the rest of my body is getting along.

[gasgod]

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Here's the answer fellas. There is no free will. ...

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IMHO, this is oh, so close, but doesn't quite make it. "There is no free will" implies that the concept of free will has a meaning, but that humans don't possess it. I contend that the term is devoid of meaning.

I have never seen an adequate definition of "free will". I have never seen an explanation that speaks about the properties of free will, or gives any clue how free will operates.

If you believe that the concept of free will is meaningful, and that you possess it, please feel free to define/explain it in a non-circular way.

GG

[Triumph36]

While this is likely, it is impossible to prove. In order to prove determinism true, one would have to know everything that will ever happen and the causes for all of it. Empirically, determinism cannot be proven, only guessed at.

While free will may be an empty concept, determinism is even emptier. Psychology has not even come close to replicating, say, Newton's Principia. This is because psychological causes are much, much harder to identify than other mechnical causes, and require far more specified knowledge.

We get a lot further assuming free will than assuming determinism. Absolutely no one can live a life assuming his or her actions are determined.

[purnell]

I'm finding it hard to believe that someone who believes that his actions are predetermined can also be a poker enthusiast. Poker is a game, the outcome of which depends upon the decisions made by the players. A poker player makes hundreds of decisions in a typical hour. Do you think your decisions at the table are predetermined?

[gasgod]

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I'm finding it hard to believe that someone who believes that his actions are predetermined can also be a poker enthusiast. Poker is a game, the outcome of which depends upon the decisions made by the players. A poker player makes hundreds of decisions in a typical hour. Do you think your decisions at the table are predetermined?

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Why do you see this question as a dichotomy? Is "free will" the only alternative to "determinism"?

It is entirely possible that events happen indeterminately, but without any reference to free will. Quantum events may very well fall into this category.

GG

[Triumph36]

All of that is irrelevant, because no one thinks that their thought processes are determined or indeterminate. People believe their thoughts are capable of being self-determined. If I tell myself "I will think about two aces", I can do so. While these all may be determined events, I have the very real illusion through consciousness that they are not. Quantum events, on the other hand, are unpredictable due to their magnitude.

As poker players, we must assume 'free will' or we will never get better at the game. Free will quite simply means the potential capability to do anything within one's power at any time. I therefore have the ability to raise with 2-7 offsuit, just as I have the ability to fold the nuts.

[jordanx]

If we only took inputs and produced outputs based on the inputs, wouldn't that imply that we would never create anything original?

Human beings have original thoughts.