A10os marginal hand, how to play correctly?

[Shillx]

I really don't understand why you like limping with A5s after one limper and like folding ATo after 2 MP limpers. I am a super tight player, but this seems like a raise to me. Is there something that I'm missing here????

Brad

[Icebee]

I am not saying autofold.

I am saying this is a clear raise considering the preflop play if you wanted to play this hand. You have position and now aggression.

The flop sucks for ATo. I personally felt that the limp and call on the flop was weak and you're getting odds to the 2nd best hand. That's my take on it.

Play it as one sees fit, but that's what happened so bleh.

[toddw8]

In reading through the replies to this hand, no one has yet mentioned the play that I would make here. Please tell me why this is wrong:

Raise the flop.

If you are going to continue here, shouldn't your goal in a big pot like this be to maximize your chances of winning? If you raise, you have a good chance to narrow the field and get people to fold their weak draws (or at least make a mistake by calling). If the SB and BB fold you are less likely to split or lose if you make your straight or pair your T. A flop raise also gives you an opportunity to take a free card on the turn if you wish.

To me, this is a raise or fold situation. If you aren't going to fold, then you need to raise to maximize your chances of winning.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I am. Jeesus. But just because you have pot odds doesn't mean you need to call it down. What exactly are your goals with this hand? You could very well be behind trip 9s. Exactly what is your goal calling on this flop?

12 to 1 what? Call that crap down if your so inclined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you're a little confused about pot odds. "Just because you have pot odds" means that you should continue with the hand, folding would be an error.

My "goal" behind continuing on the flop is, as with everytime I continue on the flop with a draw, to hit one of my draws. In this hand, the Hero is drawing to an A, a T, runner-runner clubs, or runner-runner straight. Seperately these draws are not very strong, but together they become strong enough for the Hero to continue with this hand. In fact, a raise may even be better than a call here because you might fold a better A, a small pair, or someone with outs against you. If you fold, you can't win the pot and have given up the portion of the pot that was yours.

Since the board is paired, there is a greater chance that the Hero can make a hand but still lose. So, we can discount his outs slightly. However, there has been no indication so far that anyone has a 9. There's only been a bet and a call. Deciding that someone must have a 9 here is very weak. Even with discounted outs, folding here would still be an error.

[Piiop]

I don't think this is wrong at all.

Your points are good, however it's actually more important for people to fold hands that are stronger than yours than it is for them to fold weak draws. Like if the BB folds AK or someone else folds 66, you've just bought yourself more outs and you might even have the best hand now. Since the pot is large and you would be raising on the cheap street, most people would still have odds to call with very little (They would be getting 7:1). However, most low-limit players don't consider the pot odds when making a decision and the fact that the board is paired could help scare them into folding hands that are ahead of the Hero. The free river card is also a great benefit.

I might not raise if I think I am unlikely to fold out any other players and/or I am unlikely to get a free card . The Hero doesn't have a very strong hand at this point, so if raising won't improve your chances of winning, then I think it's more important to just see the turn cheaply. If the other players are aggressive then you may not get a free card, so again calling would be just fine.

I disagree that this is a raise or fold situation. There is nothing that demands that you either raise or fold here. Raising does have it's benefits and would be right in many situations. If the Hero can't maximize his chance at winning by raising, he doesn't have to fold. Folding would be an error. The pot is large and the Hero only has to pay 1 SB to see the turn so he's getting great odds. Since he has the odds to continue, folding would be wrong.

[toddw8]

Thanks for the reply, Piiop

I'm in the middle of reading SSHE for the first time and I wanted to make sure I'm absorbing at least a little bit of what I've read.

I see what you are saying about this not being a raise or fold situation. Once you have determined that your outs are worth enough to continue when you are getting 12:1 folding is not an option. You just need to decide whether raising will maximize your chances of winning.