$200 NL, getting tricky/stupid with suited connectors. - Page 3

kushkush · #21 06-21-2005, 03:03 PM

I really like how this is played out. Also, at these stakes, there's a good chance that A-A thru Q-Q won't be able to lay the hand down and push all in on the 4th bet. Also, if he has A-K, he might push thinking that you only have top pair, thinking that he really has 6 more outs than he really has.

Spladle Master · #22 06-21-2005, 03:37 PM

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

CO ($354.9)
Button ($257.45)
SB ($65.72)
Hero ($175.2)
UTG ($211.65)
MP :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($190.43)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP :#A500AF(Villain)/ raises to $7, 3 folds, Hero calls $5.

Flop: ($15) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $13, Hero raises to $26, Villain calls $13.

Turn: ($67) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets
$50, Villain raises all-in $157.43, Hero calls all-in $92.

River: ($349.4) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $349.4

Comments on all streets welcome, although "Fold preflop" has doubltess crossed everyone's mind.

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I don't believe I'd every fold this hand in this situation pre-flop in a thousand years. But my god man, why the hell didn't you lead the flop?

Spladle Master · #23 06-21-2005, 03:38 PM

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(assuming the added variance gained by allowing Villain to draw to two outs isn't too traumatizing for us.)

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Your opponent has way more than two outs.

jedi · #24 06-21-2005, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

CO ($354.9)
Button ($257.45)
SB ($65.72)
Hero ($175.2)
UTG ($211.65)
MP :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($190.43)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP :#A500AF(Villain)/ raises to $7, 3 folds, Hero calls $5.

Flop: ($15) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $13, Hero raises to $26, Villain calls $13.

Turn: ($67) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets
$50, Villain raises all-in $157.43, Hero calls all-in $92.

River: ($349.4) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $349.4

Comments on all streets welcome, although "Fold preflop" has doubltess crossed everyone's mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe I'd every fold this hand in this situation pre-flop in a thousand years. But my god man, why the hell didn't you lead the flop?

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Heads up, out of position with a hand that relies on implied odds and plays well multi-way? I fold this more often than not.

jedi · #25 06-21-2005, 03:48 PM

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Fair enough.

I think trying to blast him off the pot with a larger check-raise represents enough strength that he'll be far more likely to lay it down, or to approach the rest of the hand more cautiously.

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Your check-minraise allows him to approach the hand cautiously without costing him much. You need to build a pot, and if he's going to fold, so be it. He doesn't have to re-raise you. He can look at the next card and figure out what to do with a min-raise. Raising more will force him to a test. You don't necessarily want a hand like AA sticking around with 5 outs against you, plus 3 more on the turn. TT is the worst, with 5 outs on the flop, plus an extra 11 with the Jack turn card. The mini-raise is the nearly the worst possible option (folding that flop is the worst)

Spladle Master · #26 06-21-2005, 03:52 PM

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Personally, as I've stated in previous threads, I fold one pair to any flop check/raise in these games exactly because people are attracted to your line of play. I am 100% folding to your check/min-raise on the flop even with AA here, FWIW. If you think that's too weak, please take a look in PT at all the times you check/raised the flop with less than one pair.

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I haven't check-raised a flop with more than a pair in the past eighteen months. The check-raise is a power play. I basically only do it to induce folds. I never do it with a hand I'm craving action with, except on later streets.

That said, I do agree with this part:

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But your line is the worst possible line to get money in. If someone will call a min-c/r they will call a bigger one. And c/r is the scariest move in poker. Why freak someone out when you want to get money in? I think the least threatening line is c/c flop, lead turn. And with the draws out there, I think an overpair pushes on the turn at least 75% of the time and probably calls 20% of the time. Then you push the river.

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That said, I'd still lead the flop, because that's what I'd do with any hand that can beat or is a coin-flip with queens on this flop. I'd check-raise with a couple of diamonds and no pair/straight draw/overcard. A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I'd definitely lead, probably same with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. About the only hand I would check/call this flop with is an open-ended straight draw, because I could probably check-raise the turn if it hit or if the board paired.

Spladle Master · #27 06-21-2005, 03:54 PM

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The best way to be paid off is to lead the flop.

Let's assume he's a good player.

Scenario 1: He has AA, KK, QQ

You min check raise him. He calls the 13 more on the flop to get a better read on you and maybe get some help, you bet 50 on the turn, hes gone. He thinks 2 pair, set, his overpair is no good. You make 26 dollars post flop on him (assuming he even calls the check raise). If you check raise to 50, he might fold. If he thought he was good here he would have pushed on this street.

Let's say you lead the flop for 15. He reraises to 45. You then push, he's out. You make 45 off him post flop.

Scenario 2: He has AK diamond, or some other draw like JT on this board.

You check, he bets 13 to semi bluff, you check raise to 26, and now he has 4:1 pot odds for his draw. If youre going to check raise you want to make it higher because of this situation. You have to raise the pot here, make it unprofitable for him to call.

If you lead the flop here with a pot sized bet you make it unprofitable for him to call. Sure you win more money by check raising in this scenario but you cant assume he has a draw and that he will semi bluff with it.

Neither of these lines match what the player did. So I assume he had JJ and you lose this hand. If you had put in a real check raise on the flop then he might have folded his jacks. If you led the flop and he just calls, then he pushes on the turn, well you have to deal with that when it comes. But if you lead the flop, he reraises, then you push, youre definitely ahead at this point. The goal is clearly to get your money in while youre ahead, and the best way to do that is by leading the flop.

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Good post.

jonnyUCB · #28 06-21-2005, 03:54 PM

You want them off the hook.

An example: holding 99 on a Q72 flop vs a pfr, I'll probably lead out 50% of the time, c/r 35% of the time, c/c lead 15% of the time.

C/r is an easy way to see if you're behind vs an agg pfr that will make continuation bets on any flop. vs a solid player I lead usually, less investment than c/c -> lead.

swolfe · #29 06-21-2005, 03:55 PM

how would you play this flop if you had AA? how would you play this flop if you had 99? what about JT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

what hand did you put him on? i can only see the turn push being made by something like JJ or AJ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. you're dead to one and you'll lose 36% to the other.

in the future you should post reads or at least stats.

i'd lead the flop, and be able to further deduce what he has from how he reacts.

beeyjay · #30 06-21-2005, 04:07 PM

Preflop:
If his range is anywhere near as tight as you say (which i doubt but well go with a tight range anyway) you have to call here. I mean you know what hes working with so when those high cards come out you can get away from the hand pretty easily. If you hit a big hand (which considering anywhere close to the range of hands you put him on you did) you're probably gonna get paid a decent amount for it.

Flop:
You have to bet out here. I probably bet 2/3 the pot ($10). If he raises, I either just call and lead out the non diamond turn or reraise depending on his image and my image at the table. If he just calls I lead out the turn for probaly about 25 into the 35 dollar pot at that point. Based on the way he played it i think he raises here and you push and he calls.