Ed Miller's book "versus" WLLH

[maurile]

[AgentBishop]

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is this seat taken

[Syntax]

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If you had A A and the flop were 8 8 2 , I wouldn't complain nearly as vociferously. I'd still disagree... and I would still recommend betting in a typical game with loose opponents

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Im not sure I understood this part. Why would it be more acceptable to check AA here? Is it because your opponents are more likely to fold to a bet and there is less chance to get outdrawn with the uncooridinated board so you are hoping to get a few double bets on the turn and river?

[RollaJ]

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Countless terrible hold 'em strategy books have been written, and your book is better than almost all of them

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<font color="blue"> What a great quote. </font>
Are they taking nominations for quote of the year yet?

[TimTimSalabim]

I'm not an NPA [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but I'll take a stab at your question. With the QQ on the 88T board, you have to worry about someone holding an A or K hitting their overcard, or someone holding a T. So you're betting in part to protect your hand. With the AA on the 882, now there is much less chance someone can hit a card to beat you, so it's more ok to check and let them hopefully hit a second-best hand while at the same time costing you less when there's an 8 out. Although as Ed says, it's probably still better to bet anyway, but checking has more justification.

[LSUfan1]

Thank you both!

Mr. Jones, your book was the second book I read after Hold em Poker by Mr. Sklansky, and it helped me tremendously. I started after a while to not only win less, but move in reverse due to an over abundance of calls. After reading Mr. Miller's post regarding raising more often to protect my over pairs I have reversed this trend to a dramatic extent. I am winning at a far greater clip than ever before. I believe your book is perfect for beginners to learn the TIGHT part of their poker personality, but there must be a subsequent learning of AGRESSIVENESS if there is to be any significant growth.

I still refer to your book on occasion, but if Mr. Miller's book can give me the types of gems that the "crushing games" post gives, I will be able to improve my game even more, and that is the main idea of any book!

Thank you both again,
Cliff

GEAUX TIGERS!!!! TRUE NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!!!

[PseudoPserious]

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(and the Peter Griffins of the world can actually compute it)

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This *can't* be a Family Guy reference, can it?

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PP

[David Steele]

I only have the first edition of WLLH so perhaps things
have changed but I think you are exagerating what Lee says
in the QQ 88 example. He says:

"If the entire table takes the flop....." and then

"... if you get called, you have to slow down".

I am not sure he means check if you get just one or two
callers, he is talking about a family pot and usually
lots will call the flop. "if you get called" should not
be translated to "one caller checks to you on the turn so you check behind
and if he checks, check the river again".

Lee goes on to point out that there is a high probability
no one was dealt an 8, and even suggests bluffing at this
flop. Your 40%/no 8 "guess" is listed there.

The important point of this section for new players is to
take note of the different situation with two pair
when one is on board. I have seen many new players
constantly describe their hand as "2 pair" and not appreciating
the community nature of their hand. This community nature
is actually a fundemental reason why players play bad in holdem.
Lee had to go a little overboard to mark this important
feature.

Unfortunaltly, players are going to have to think for themselves
and assimilate a whole lot of ideas from sources and experience
if they want to play well.

D.

[MaxPower]

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There's only way analogous way I could see to show with near-certainty that my statements are "wrong". You'd have to mine a database of a few zillion hands actually played, and see whether (for instance) it's better to bet or check the turn with QQ when the flop comes T-8-8 and you get called in one or two places.


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We don't need a database of a zillion hands. In the situation we are talking about when you are up against loose players, they do not need an 8 to call you. They might have a pair of 3s or JT or QJ or A4 or any number of hands that they will call with. All the bets you make when they make these calls more than make up for those you loose when someone has an 8. Checking in this situation just costs you money and gives a free card.

From experience we know that it is profitable to bet in these situation against loose players. We don't need a zillion hands, we just have to make this bet and observe what kinds of hands call us.

[astroglide]

Now, I'm sure somebody will say "Er, Lee, shouldn't you be the one doing this research?" Yes, I'd love to. And some day I may take on such a project - I think it would be fascinating. And I have actually discussed with PokerStars management the possibility of doing such a thing.

no doubt it would be fascinating to you, but i sincerely hope that you won't do such a thing. most of the poker sites are now sitting on "the solution" to poker right now. if the information is made public, bots will quickly ruin online poker. if it is used privately, it is ridiculously advantageous for those with access.