The only nonfiction that ever gave me bad dreams

[Cyrus]

Read also Beevor's other book, about Stalingrad.

Then, you may perhaps understand the cause for the Russians' brutality against the German population, military and civilian alike. Although Beevor touches only lightly on the extreme brutality shown by the invading Germans against any living form inside the Soviet Union, I believe the author's spare references on Nazi beastliness and mass murder will provide educated and smart people like you with a valuable insight.

Then, possibly, the bad dreams will stop.

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[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Then, possibly, the bad dreams will stop.

[/ QUOTE ]why would reading this make them stop?

[The once and future king]

Nate you make one glaring and massive oversight in your post.

I wonder how American soldiers would have behaved when pushing into Germany if they were pushing the Germans out of there homecountry and the Germans had behaved the same way they had whilst occupying Soviet Russia.

The Germans killed way way more Soviet non combatants and POW's than they did Jews.

They were brutal in there occupation of Russia not experienced by citizens of there western invasion. Check out russian cassualties in WW2 they are MASSIVE.

In Europe the war in the West was a mere side show to the war in the East. Germany had over 80% of its was machine deployed in the East.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how American soldiers would have behaved when pushing into Germany if they were pushing the Germans out of there homecountry and the Germans had behaved the same way they had whilst occupying Soviet Russia.

[/ QUOTE ] well Thats an interesting point. Lets be honest, both of these armies did amazingly terrible things during WWII, so IMO, really both of the armies were disgusting abominations of humanity. Both give me nightmares. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Cyrus]

"Why would reading ["Stalingrad"] make [the bad dreams] stop [for Natedogg]?"

Natedogg hopes that the United States is never unprepared to face an invader, the way Germany was when the Russians invaded it.

But it's not that Germany was "unprepared" that caused Russian brutality; the root cause was the thirst for payback on account of the extreme Nazi brutality (much, much, much more extreme than anything the Russian did, if you visit the record) against the Russian population.

So, I'm saying the United States has nothing to fear. And neither does Natedogg. Because the United States never invaded other countries and tortured, killed and maimed thousands of its citizens or ever caused chaos, misery and grief in any other country on earth.

Sleep tight...

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ThaSaltCracka]

hmmm.... what I got from his post was that what he read bothered him, so I imagine reading more of the same would still bother him. Maybe I assumed the wrong thing though.

[Cyrus]

You are a soldier with the American army marching into Mexico. (Bear with me.)

It has been a long war. The Mexicans invaded the United States, and executed about two million civilians in the first two months of their invasion. Those were mostly civilians. The Mexicans were also executing any soldier they caught prisoner, whom they deemed as "militarily useless".

Moreover, there is 1 dead person in your immediate family that suffered a horrible death in the hands of the Mexicans. There was torture involved. Did I mention that your town is no more? It was burned to the ground, along with ten thousand other towns, cities, and villages, in order to "terrorise into submission" the American scum. Did I also mention that the expedition into America was widely supported by an enthusiastic Mexican electorate that elected as president a man that promised the Mexicans the annihilation of the US and the re-population of it with their Superior Race?

So far about twenty million Americans have been killed either from bullets or from fire or from hangings or from famine in the hands of the Mexicans.

Now...

How do you feel when you come face to face with your first Mexican village?

[ThaSaltCracka]

I understand the mindset, thats the not the problem. The Russians wanted revenge, which is a common feeling for humans. However, once you turn to use the same despicable tactics that you enemy used, you become just as bad as them IMO. I can empathize(sp??) with people, until the resort to the same tactics. I think it is also important to look at this situation from the sidelines, instead of choosing sides.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I can empathize with people, until they resort to the same tactics. I think it is also important to look at this situation from the sidelines, instead of choosing sides.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was siding most empathically with the Soviets in their fight against Nazism -- no two ways about it. And I also do not approve of their "revenge" on the German citizens. The two sentiments are not incompatible.

Anyway, Antony Beevor's "Stalingrad" is as equally fascinating a read as "Berlin". He is not just precise, he writes well.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I was siding most empathically with the Soviets in their fight against Nazism -- no two ways about it

[/ QUOTE ] thats fine and it makes perfect sense, but a lot of the sympathy I have for them disappears once I hear about them committing similar atrocities.